Allow me to explain. Within the last six months, i've noticed that my car is moving around more on the roads..wandering if you can call it that. At first I had thought it was just the wheel paths of the road...but its all the time now, even on new paved strips.

Worse now is that when I accelerate, it pulls hard to the left. When I brake, totally opposite, and veers right.

3 months ago, I had all of my upper and lower control arm bushings replaced, but have recently found out that either he didn't do the lower fronts, or he damaged them during installation, because they look torn up and aged. They get fixed in a week or so.

Less than 8 months ago, the lower shock bushings were replaced by the dealer in addition to the upper shock mounts.

I really need to get this problem fixed, as I need new tires all around and soon. This 2000 mile trip I just took ate the rest of my rears and my fronts are worn out on the outer edge...little too much toe-in, need to adjust on that a bit next alignment.

Do I need front ball joints? Anything else in this suspension kit that you might recommend to help my wandering car?

 

It's a possibility the sidewalls of your current tires are breaking down. As for ball Joints, find a big area that you can crank the steering all the way to each side and drive a few circles, if you hear or feel popping and ratcheting, I'd say yes you need ball joints. If the circles are smooth, ball joints are probably good.

Can't offer much else.

 

How many miles? Original struts? Even if they aren't leaking, they do wear gradually and on an 00 with, probably 75K+ on the clock they are probably nowhere near as solid as new ones.

 

Ball joint check, will do next time I get back into town.

As for mileage, this 03 has 92,000 now, front rebounds pretty good, and dealer didn't recommend new ones when we spent $2k on suspension parts, including the shock mounts. They did recommend new front coils, but that was becuase we were trying to get the camber back into spec, not because they were fatigued to cause a problem.

I have another suggestion over here that the tie rods may be worth a look also.

Some more 'symptoms', the car really careens when hitting those little dips and rises in the road...going across the grooves in the pavement are painfully difficult to keep straight, requiring two hands..and it is even hard keeping it straight when moving from one side of the road across the crown, into the other lane.

I would also think shocks, but this isn't just happening when hitting bumps/dips...but i'll have the dealer or my indy mechanic give it a looksee when I have a chance to bring it in.

Any more suggestions guys?

 

Esqueeze me, the throttle steering is from a problem at the rear. Bad rear hub carrier lower fulcrum bearings will jab the car offline when you jab the throttle. Rear hub bearings will do the same, but you would have likely heard them screaming for attention if there is that much play at the hub. Bad rear susppension lower wishbone bushings will also make the car toe steer from the rear on and off the power.

I have a 98 XK coupe in right now, all four of the lower wishbone bushings are junk (60K). My impression is that the current instability is due to the incredibly uneven tire wear which resulted, and there is no change induced by throttle on/ throttle off.

You have to check both ends of the car thoroughly and fix what's wrong, including the tires, before you can isolate the problem... or find that you have already corrected it. Maybe this maybe that isn't going to cut it.

Ball joints are simple to check with a prybar for lost motion, it's pretty easy to tell when you find a bad one and I suspect alot of servicable ball joints get replaced for not much good reason. I haven't tried Wheeble's wobble test though, I'll give that a try and thanks for the tip!

 

I just tried the loop de loop test on one of my XJ8's...it's a high mileage car, and I know for a fact the lower ball joints are slopped out.

I got a shock when I realized how tight the turning radius is on a short wheel base XJ. I got a little dizzy repeating the procedure. That's all I got.

 

You are exqueezed jagtechO. And thanks, i'll add those to the list of possibilities. Tie rods would be the quickest and smallest labor cost repair...i may give that a shot first while adding new tires all around. Ball joints second if i still get wandering, and then move to the rear on those rear hub carrier fulcrum bearings you mentioned...and that I have no idea where they are located. off to the JTIS for a little research. BTW, rear is quiet.

 

Just get somebody knowledgeable to yank on your tires, and all shall be revealed.

Perceptable play at the outer tie rod ends or inner tie rod joints will not have a marked effect on handling. Either of these ball and socket joints that have lost motion wil cause very little slop in the steering: they would have to be majorly hosed for you to notice, and are very easy to diagnose by checking for play at the wheel in this circumstance. The biggest detriment is that now the toe is changing as you drive the car down the road. That shows up as increased tire wear, but the car has to be pretty badly toed out before you notice the need for white knuckle steering correction.

If your front tires are showing outer shoulder wear, that's not from tie rods: forward thrust would push the front wheels towards toe out if there was play in inner or outer tie rod joints.

Toe in will make the car twitchy as you describe ( not on/ off throttle, that's a separate issue). More likely that this angle was set incorrectly when your last service was done, and has become more prominent in its effect as the front tires have worn unevenly as a result of the misalignment.

Hope you're making some sense out of this. Shocks don't cut it, as far as what makes sense to me.

 

Ok, had a chance to get the Left Front up on a jackstand, and the wheel has some play (rather easy to do also) from side to side, however up-down gives up nothing. What's that tell you guys?

 

That's a preliminary indication that the wheel bearing isn't falling apart. Now you have to repeat while inspecting for play at:

Outer tie rod end
Inner tie rod joint
Steering rack mountings
Upper wishbone bushings
Upper wishbone throughbolt in front crossmember (thanks to the guy on here who found and corrected this problem on his XK, and shared the story)
Lower wishbone bushings.

If you mean by "rather easy to do" that it took very little force to identify the lost motion, then the steering related items are the most likely. Not likely to have anything to do with the on/ off throttle instability you have described.

Try yanking on all four, you are looking for something big if you are going to check this out yourself...and congrats for your 2,000th post. Please spend a few weeks checking out the car really thoroughly so I can catch up in the interim, OK?

 

Hmmm, lots of little places to check. Well assuming my indy mechanic did his job well, I did replace all four control arm bushings (same as the wishbone - the part, not the formation...I presume?)

Inner and outer tie rod parts, that crossmember bolt and the steering rack mounts will be on my list when I take this into the dealer...or another indy mechanic if I get the nerve up.

This tire that I removed, has excessive outside tire wear, whereon the other side is significantly less. I align this thing about every 3 months, so I think this one side is moving around causing the wandering about. Thanks so much for the ideas as to where to keep looking. You're only 180+ away on posts, so i'm sure you'll surpass this casual poster in the near future.

 

Sheesh, I'm down another two posts already...

Here is the one absolute you can take with you to any shop you go, and they should already be quite well aware:

You can't align a car that has a significant amount of play in any of the wheels. Wherever you set the adjustments, the alignment will be changing as you drive the car down the road.

Outer shoulder tire wear means too much toe in, or too much positive camber. This is not natural!

If the wear is much more pronounced on one front tire relative to the other (and the tire mileage and placement are consistant), that is most likely from too much positive camber on that suspension corner. This is not natural!

Everything that wears over time leads to the result of more negative camber, and less toe in. Spring sag, worn wishbone bushings, play in either end of the tie rods: these all tilt the table towards misalignment that causes INNER shoulder tire wear. That is natural!

Beyond checking for anything really loose yourself, I think you need to be searching for another mechanic. You might be dealing with parts changers and guys who read the directions from their alignment monitors. What you need is a natural!

 

^ very poetic JTO, you should publish your automotive whimsicals as a coffee table book, I might download it.

 

Thanks for the suggestion Matt,

Yet another opportunity to share my creative passion and hard-earned years of experience for no tangible return. I'll get right on it.

 

If you were closer my friend, i'd let you have a stab at this problem. And yes, you'd get paid. I've got other issues too, air bag light flashing at me, then going steady on, plus some rattles that are driving me INSANE-O. Dealer is going to have a hayday with this shopping list.

 

I have told him the same thing. JTO is one eloquent knuckle-buster.

 

Gordo, you have any insight into my suspension issues? I thought for sure you'd be one that could closely diagnose based on my symptoms.

Tomorrow it goes before the dealer service guys.

 

JTO pretty much covered it. My money is on too much toe in; but not necessarily caused by tie rods. You have replaced the common known culprits. The upper arm pin (long bolt) can wear out, but that would have be obvious when you replaced the bushings.

You can check for worn ball joints on the car. Jack up car w/ wheel about 4-6" off pavement. Use a pry bar or 2x4 under the unsprung wheel. A loose or bad ball joint is easy to spot.

But I agree with others, any good front end mechanic can fix this EZ.

 

Ok, resolved this yesterday, after a day at the dealer and an independent 'british' specialty garage. My problem was the result of too much toe-in, and a failed lower front control arm bushing. This bushing should have been new 4 months ago, but I believe now that a few of my lower ones were untouched due to time constraints for replacement by this local garage I entrusted to do a simple parts install. My dealer said one of the bushings looked like the original 6-yr old OEM part. Anyway, if this lower front bushing was replaced, it was damaged during install, as it was so stressed, the rubber looked like it was bleeding out the connection...a deep black mess. Upon its replacement, and a new alignment, the car was back to normal. No wandering at all. All other components checked out including tie rods, ball joints and everything else was 'solid' to quote them both. I specifically asked for these to be inspected and tested.

 

Then the "on and off throttle" was a red herring, as were the answers to explain it. Twitchy steering from too much toe in and worn front tires will require constant steering correction, but throttle steering from loose rear suspension components is a whole different ball game and it's pretty easy to identify once you know what it feels like.

This is another case where it sounds real easy to say "replace the component", and it's a whole nuther story to get it done properly.

First point is that the bushings have been revised and application changed by part number several times because of the glaring inadequacy or the original nylon cased bushings. Guys have to know what to put in.

Second it that the leading wishbones are not real easy to block in a press for removal/ replacement, and these bones are aluminum so they can be easily damaged if care is not exercised.

Third is that even the latest and greatest steel cased bushings can be screwed up when pressing them in: distorting the outer collar so they do not seat fully, or pressing them with an adapter that breaks the center sleeve loose from the rubber it is bonded to.

Fourth is that after assembly, you have to leave the through bolts a bit loose and torque them when the weight of the car is loading the suspension. Otherwise you get "bushing wind-up", this is a pretty basic concept and true with any bonded rubber suspension bushing on any car. One result of doing it wrong is decreased life of the component.

Point of all this is that there are alot of cars running around that still have the junk original bushings, guys not inspecting them properly, and not replacing them properly if they are bad. I'm not a prima donna, but I don't take for granted anymore that someone else working on a car means they are actually repairing it.

In your case Matt, the toe in was not caused by the bad bushings but as a result of incorrect adjustment. I'd be asking for an adjustment on the cost of a new set of front tires from the guy who set your car up so it scrubbed the old ones to hell. If the car had one bad wishbone bushing on it when it was aligned, it couldn't have been properly aligned regardless.