Mikey. If by this you mean that regular fuel (E10) stored in an absolute sealed container has an indefinite life you are sadly mistaken. Prove it for yourself. Keep a can of it, 5 gallon or so sealed over the winter months and then try starting your car on it in the early summer. All I can say is best of luck to you. You can even smell it’s bad when you open the can. Adding a stabilizer does not improve its life either. 3 months is the maximum that E10 can be kept and that cannot be extended no matter how you store it.





However do the same with 5 gallon of 100% high test and you are good to go.

 

Mikey. If by this you mean that regular fuel (E10) stored in an absolute sealed container has an indefinite life you are sadly mistaken. Prove it for yourself. Keep a can of it, 5 gallon or so sealed over the winter months and then try starting your car on it in the early summer. All I can say is best of luck to you. You can even smell it’s bad when you open the can. Adding a stabilizer does not improve its life either. 3 months is the longest E 10 can be stored for and that cannot be improved on no matter how carefully you store it.





However do the same with 5 gallon of 100% high test and you are good to go.

 

Bob-

I've been storing my '70s vintage Corvette for six months or so every winter since I bought it in the late 80s. It starts faithfully first turn of the key every spring using last year's E10 fuel. Here's a recent look inside the gas tank:



No corrosion, no sludge, no nothing. No additives.

My snowblower sits with a full tank of E10 for eightish months (albeit with dry carb and sealed gas tank as recommended above) and starts on the second or third pull.

Both pass the 'smell' test too.

No one in my Corvette association (15,000+ members) has reported any problems with six months storage periods using E10. Some in the gulf states report driveability problems during the summer months due to vapour lock and/or percolation, but not storage issues.

No Jag owner on this site has reported any storage issues due to fuel degradation (relax plums we've heard about your fuel pumps)

Just sayin', as the yoots say.

 

I would say absolute bull$hit but that would be really rude. So I will put it all down to Perth getting the cream off the top when it comes to its E10 supply of gas. Something really special and unlike any place else. Could it be they only sell this special stuff to Corvette owners...Hummmm


So now that we are discussing fantasy. I am now done with the subject.

 

As you wish Bob- I'm only stating my experience. Why would I make stuff up and somehow produce pics of it? We've only been in Perth for a little over a year, we lived in Queerbec prior to that so they must get 'special' gas too.

Maybe they save all the bad stuff for Trawna?

 

I'll state my experience, for what it is worth. My job is taking care of a privately owned collection of classics/exotics/collectibles....mostly 60s-70s vintage but a fair number of newer cars, right up to 2013s.

FWIW...probably important... the cars are stored inside. The warehouses are well enough heated that temps don't fall below about 50ºF and it's a dry environment. And, again, E10 is the only thing we have up here.

With cars having non-treated fuel (that is, no 'Stabil' or similar storage preservatives) I don't have any problems at all with 1 year old gasoline. Two year old gas may give hard starting and smelly exhaust.....and not-so-good running. At 3 years it's pretty bad. Very hard or impossible starting. If it CAN be started it'll run pretty bad. Generally, if I know the gas is 3-4 years old I usually just pump/drain the old stuff and add fresh without even trying to start the engine.

Those are all rough guidelines. Just last week, though, I unburied (for an upcoming Corevette photo-shoot) a 2003 Corvette that hasn't been started in over 3 years and the gasoline is at least a full five years old. Just for the heck of it I hit the key. Started right up, amazingly, and idles great...but won't take any engine load at all.

I've never opened up (that is, cut open) any gas tanks to see what they look like so I don't know if E10 is causing any damage. On the umpteen Corvettes where you can easily look into the tank (see above pics) I've never seen anything unsual. Just shiny metal.

On the oldie cars with carbs the fuel evaporates out of the bowls fairly quickly so there's not much opportunity for E10 damage. Fuel hoses? Hard to say. I replace quite a few but, geeez, if a 15-20-30 year old rubber fuel hose fails how do I know E10 caused the failure....or didn't cause it? Rubber fuel hoses were splitting, crumbling, and leaking long before E10 ever became an issue.

I *do* have problems with the leather accelerator pumps used in the old 60s-70s vintage Carter AFB carbs. They shrink badly. Again, I'm hard pressed to summarily blame E10. I can remember replacing dried out accelerator pumps in auto shop class in 1974. The rubber(ish) accelerator pumps used on other carbs never give me problems.

From my perspective I can't really fault E10. At least not *reliably* fault it. I'm not a scientist or an engineer. I just know what I see and experience. My personal cars run fine on E10 and with the stored cars I have no problems that I can definitively blame on E10.

<shrug>

Carry on

Cheers
DD

 

I have checked out what other peoples ( automobile enthusiasts) experiences have been and all report similar to mine. In addition I was directed to this paper so I offer it up to you. Interesting readings.


E10 Ethanol: Recommended engine precautions

 

Heh heh. I'm afraid I'm not convinced, Bob.

I always have reservations when a web page, appearing to offer up information, is merely selling a product. In this case, alcohol test kits @ $31.95 each.

It's pretty clear that this outfit is capitalizing ($$$) on a controversial and highly-politicized issue, going as far signing petitions and our 'right' to buy clear glass...as though it was a constitutional issue.

It would obviously go against their interests ($$$) to present a balanced perspective on the matter, wouldn't you say?


Cheers
DD

 

+1.

There's half a dozen sites that tell tales of woe and misery brought on by the evils of satan ethanol and then trot out their miracle cure.

Classic snake oil marketing at it's best- 'buy my product to keep bad things from happening'.

Possibly to bring things back into balance- here's what Echo (manufacturer of gas powered tools) recommends regarding E10

http://www.echo-usa.com/Warranty/Lea...ol-Fuel-062512

Which mirrors what was said above. They manufacture the tools with E10 compliant materials, but caution against storage with E10 due to the open fuel system. Note the illustrations of engine damage are all due to fuel and/or the tool being improperly stored.

This is not rocket science guys.............

Is it?

 

Doug there is a wealth of information on the internet about it. I just picked the first one I came too.


In addition to all this information on e10 there is also a page dedicated to what cars are built to use e10. Eye opener when you see the number of manufactures that do not recommend there cars be run on it. Toyota, Lexus, Ford, MGB are just for a few. I hasten to point out that their full range of models are not included but even to have some of them listed says something.


As I said my experience has not been anything like yours. The stuff has gone bad on me so many times I will not use it anymore. I would rather pay for the better fuel and not have to keep stripping my cars. In fact I have a 2006 Jeep Liberty sitting on my hoist right now that absolutely refuses to start. I have been told that the fuel in it is about a year old. Its just gummed up and full of the crap. Maybe a heated garage is the answer, I don't have that, well not yet. Have an oil furnace that is not hooked up yet.


So once again we will have to agree to disagree.

 

Bob- could you provide a link to any of this info? E10 is federally mandated in much of the US- can't imagine any OEM shooting themselves in the foot.

 

1) it may have changed recently, but ethanol laced fuel is not carried in pipelines because their owners and equipment suppliers understand the effects of ethanol on the equipment. lots of reading material out there in industry publications on the topic.

2) "acceptable materials" may be "most of it will last through the warranty period, give or take". that didn't help the owners here with failed fuel rails which are helpfully NLA. it also won't help when a fuel sender goes **** up due to ethanol induced corrosion.

talking about "acceptable materials" already admits that there are harmful effects and moves the discussion to mitigating the effects.

that's about the same as a choice between drinking a bottle of distilled water or scooping up some ground water that has to have a purification tab added to it.

i'll have the distilled thanks. you're welcome to the ground water .. with or without purification tabs.

 

No different than an OEM having chosen acceptable materials to be compatible with pure gas, brake fluid, coolant, engine oil, p/s fluid, etc etc. Let's also discuss the choice of interior materials, external paint and headlamp lenses to best resist UV rays.

Please............

 

Exactly.

See post #13

I'm not really buying this bit of OEMs playing the victim when in reality they've just been dragging their feet for 20+ years

Cheers
DD

 

And it's a prime example of why some people view the E10 issue with a degree of skepticism!





Is that page is more credible than the "Test Kits For Sale" page ? I hope so!






Fair enough, as always.

I'm certainly willing to agree that there can be a stack-up of conditions where E10 can cause a problems in stored vehicles/equipment.

The depth, breadth, severity, and frequency of these problems is something we might find more disagreement on but, of course, personal experiences obviously play a part in the opinions we form.

Cheers
DD

 

[QUOTE=Doug;88171


Is that page is more credible than the "Test Kits For Sale" page ? I hope so!




Cheers
DD[/QUOTE]




The vehicle manufacturers site I found is apparently based in Australia so I thought that would disqualify it. So I left it out. However I do offer this list.














Bombardier - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "Never use fuel containing alcohol...". See note.





Mercury Marine - Prohibits use of E10 fuel -Quote, "We do not recommend the use of gasoline which contains alcohol because of the possible adverse effect the alcohol may have on the fuel system...may cause the following problems: corrosion of metal parts, deterioration of plastic parts, damage of internal parts, starting and operating difficulties, and water lock.". See note.





Nissan - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Gasoline containing alcohol may cause: wear and damage to bearings, cams, pistons and piston gears, corrosion of metal parts, deterioration of rubber and plastic parts, idling and performance problems.".





Outboard Marine Corporation (OMC) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Alcohol attracts and holds moisture that can cause corrosion of metallic parts in the fuel system and can cause engine performance problems.". (OMC was acquired by BRP Bombardier Recreational Products at the end of 2003.





Pleasurecraft Engine Group - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "Gasoline containing alcohol is not recommended for use in your engine and may cause the following: hard starting and operating difficulties, corrosion of metal parts, excessive wear and damage to internal engine parts, fuel permeation through flexible fuel lines, and deterioration of some nonmetallic parts.". See note.





Suzuki - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Suzuki highly recommends that you use alcohol-free unleaded gasoline whenever possible..."





















Ferrari - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - "...we suggest that our customers not use alcohol fuel in our vehicles.".





Hyundai - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "If your engine develops driveability problems, the use of 100% unleaded gasoline is recommended.".





Kia -E10 warnings/precautions only- Quote, "Discontinue using gasahol of any kind if driveability problems occur...".





Porsche - E10 warnings/precautions only- Quote, "...change to a different fuel or station if any of the following problems occur: deterioration of driveability and performance, substantially reduced fuel economy, vapor lock, and engine malfunction or stalling".





Volkswagen/Audi - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "If you experience a loss of fuel economy or driveability and performance problems due to the use of [ethanol blends], we recommend that you switch to unblended fuel.".



















Ducati - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "Additives to fuel or lubricants are not allowed.".





Harley Davidson - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "You may find that some [ethanol] gasoline blends affect the starting, driveability, or fuel efficiency of your motorcycle. If you experience one or more of these problems, it is recommended you operate your motorcycle on straight unleaded gasoline.".





Suzuki - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "If you are not satisfied with the driveability or fuel economy with your motorcycle when you are using an oxygenated fuel, you should switch back to regular unleaded gasoline.".



















Ariens (EZR Easy Turn Mower) - Prohibits use of E10 fuel - Quote, "DO NOT use gasohol ot gasoline containing alcohol. Alcohol will cause internal parts to deteriorate.".





Murray (Lawn Tractor) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "A mixture of alcohol and gasoline will attract moisture and cause acid deposits during storage.".





Poulan (Chain Saw) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Experience indicates that alcohol blended fuels can attract moisture which leads to fuel mixture separation and formation of acids during storage."





Sears (Craftsman Tiller) - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Experience indicates that alcohol blended fuels can attract moisture which leads to fuel mixture separation and formation of acids during storage.".





Briggs and Stratton - E10 warnings/precautions only - Quote, "Some fuels are gasoline blended with alcohols or ethers. Excessive amounts of these blends can damage the fuel system or cause performance problems. If any undesirable operating conditions occur, use gasoline with a lower percentage of alcohol or ether."





I also offer this.


Ethanol fuel can absorb enough water to reach it's phase separation point in just over 3 months at 70% humidity. Once this saturation point is exceeded, the solution separates and the gas floats on top while the ethanol and water mix on the bottom. This event is called "phase separation".


While the phase separation slurry in itself can cause problems by clogging fuel systems, the more immediate problem is that the remaining gasoline has now lost it's original octane value which can cause poor running and in some cases engine damage. When phase separation occurs, the fuel should be drained and replaced.


Now one should keep in mind that both the bulk delivery tanker truck and at all gas stations the storage tanks are all vented to atmosphere. So chances are quite high that in humid weather the ethanol you are purchasing could already be quite close to the saturation point before it ever gets into your tank.


In addition fuel storage and winterization has to be handled differently when using E-10 fuels. Manufacturers are warning that fuels need to be stabilized if un-used for as little as 2 weeks. Not all stabilizers are known to be E-10 compatible. Non-alcohol based fuel stabilizer additives are a must for ethanol fuel.


In relationship to a Jaguar. Particularly in the series III car the system is not air tight. main reason is the carbon canister situated in the front wing of the vehicle is vented to atmosphere allowing the whole system to breath or absorb moisture. Not sure about the later vehicles but I believe they have a similar set up.

 

the point remains that if mitigation measures are required, then by definition the risk exists. the logic is irrefutable.

whether you view the measures as being slow in making their appearance is irrelevant in terms of the existence of the risk.

furthermore, the development of oem mitigation strategies is incomplete. the busiest sections of JF are the slightly older years, and that is where the tales of woe show up.

it's fine to say that in theory all systems in all vehicles should be e-10 safe ... until you happen to be the poor sap trying to dig up a new fuel rail, acquire viton seals in the *correct* but rare formulation, or are trying to ressurect a long parked collector car.

theory is all well and fine until reality hits.

most people seem to accept that smacking their thumb with a hammer is not a good idea based on experiential observation or experience. some people can even extend that thought to decide hammer blows to the head are also probably a bad idea.

ethanol should be no different.

 

I get that! The amount of risk seems to be in question, though.




I get that, too, although there's really no excuse for it. Not in this day and age.




Not sure what you mean by 'slighty older'. Maybe 5-10 years?

As you know the overwhelming majority of my time is spent in the older Jag sections where 70s, 80s, mid-90s vintage Jags are discussed. I don't recall any threads about destroyed fuel rails, chronic fuel pump failures, and the like....at least not on X300-and-earlier cars.

If there's problem primarily on 'slightly' older Jags I have to wonder why.





Fair enough, fair enough.







See my earlier post. And Mikey's gas tank pics. It really isn't a big deal....although I can see how it *could* be a big deal if the water-in-fuel situation wasn't kept on top of.

Of course, we all know that water in fuel is a big problem with or without E10. Nothing new there. But a person storing a car with E10 would be wise to be extra dutiful in his precuations: keep the tank full to avoid condensation and make sure rainwater/melted snow can't drip into the tank.

In other words the same precuations that we always took in the glorious, halcyon days of pre-E10 fuel .





Which reality? Mine? Yours? Mikey's? Peddlarbob's?




Nobody here is asking you to keep hitting your thumb (or head) with a hammer! You do so entirely of your own free will!




Cheers
DD

 

Well, Yes and No. There are degrees of problems.
Clean water dissolved in fuel without E10 has never been a problem.
Clean water dissolved in fuel with E10 is only regarded as a problem by some manufacturers.

Things are more serious when there is free water at the bottom of a holding tank of fuel. If the fuel is not E10, then:
If only fuel is drawn up, there is no problem whatsoever.
If water is drawn up with the fuel, but the water is clean (unlikely), the engine may sputter and die, but no real damage.
If water with dissolved sludge is drawn up with the fuel, filters and jets will eventually be clogged.

However, if the fuel is E10, some of the ethanol will already have been dissolved in the free water. In this case:
If only E10 fuel is drawn up, some manufacturers do not see a problem.
If the water/alcohol mix (with or without sludge) is drawn up with the fuel, the more-corrosive mixture will also in effect be lean, and possibly lead to engine damage in the long term.

This is why I prefer to get my gas from "responsible" vendors who constantly check on free water in holding tanks.

 

I think we all agree on that, and this practice holds true whether E10 or pure gas.

Contaminated fuel will stop an engine cold in it's tracks no matter the type.