Injectors.
#1
09-12-2010, 04:37 AM
Injectors.
In UK and Europe, diesel enthusiasts may be wondering about the newish piezoelectric injectors used on the 2.7 diesel engines. I can affirm that after 121,000mile, the ones on my S-type are still functioning perfectly. No misfires, no blue smoke, no starting difficulties. My mpg. figs. in big city traffic are around 32mpg(UK) which exceeds the quoted fig. in the handbook at 26mpg. As diesel men know, the first indication of blocked/worn injectors is poor mpg.
This engine is one of those that doesn't give 'super' mpg figures if you drive it like a slug. I give it the beans now and then as much to clean the injectors as anything else, as I use BP's "Ultimate" diesel every second fill. The most economic cruising speed seems to be 50 to 60mph.
One contributor, I think Mafiosa, was complaining that his 'snap' acceleration was a touch tardy. Although mine is automatic and his manual, I have noticed this myself now I've paid attention to it. It could be natural to this engine, but if it's a problem, maybe a remap of the control software might be appropriate? In UK there seems to be dozens of firms doing this. They are however somewhat expensive, £400 to £500 being a typical cost.
No, you won't really fault this engine which started life as the Peugeot-Citroen big V6D, now much altered by the Jaguar engineers. And it's every bit as quiet as the petrols.
Leedsman.
This engine is one of those that doesn't give 'super' mpg figures if you drive it like a slug. I give it the beans now and then as much to clean the injectors as anything else, as I use BP's "Ultimate" diesel every second fill. The most economic cruising speed seems to be 50 to 60mph.
One contributor, I think Mafiosa, was complaining that his 'snap' acceleration was a touch tardy. Although mine is automatic and his manual, I have noticed this myself now I've paid attention to it. It could be natural to this engine, but if it's a problem, maybe a remap of the control software might be appropriate? In UK there seems to be dozens of firms doing this. They are however somewhat expensive, £400 to £500 being a typical cost.
No, you won't really fault this engine which started life as the Peugeot-Citroen big V6D, now much altered by the Jaguar engineers. And it's every bit as quiet as the petrols.
Leedsman.
#2
09-12-2010, 10:26 AM
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Nice info leedsman and thanks for the post
Sorry, don't wanna hijack your thread- but, I can atest to how good a remap can be. I have it done on my A6, had it done on my Ford Mondeo ST Tdci and also my Saab 93. Cost as you say can be around £400+ but the beauty is, if you drive enough miles there is a 10%-15% increase in fuel economy when driven normally AND the extra power / torque is there when you want to use it
Not sure about the injectors on my A6 to be honest. As for driving styles? I tend to drive a lot more conservatively these days but still "bury the pedal in the carpet" every other day to keep her running sweet as I did with all my cars - never had any probs with blue / black smoke / misfires etc!
#3
09-14-2010, 04:31 PM
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agree, to a remap of modern electronic injection diesel engines, is a good move.
seems as tho it has better results than gasoline(petrol) cars.
and modifing the diesel, with larger exhaust, removing catylists, and any regen systems, really makes them come to life.
along with larger turbos,and injectors; 100% power increases seem possible.
it seems it does not effect durability much because we dont use the power for long periods of time,mostly passing and acceleration , a few seconds at a time.
now getting thru emission requirements may change things.
so who wants to try it 1st. LOL.
here in the states, we cant even buy the Audi TDI with a V12 diesel engine.
THX Ron
seems as tho it has better results than gasoline(petrol) cars.
and modifing the diesel, with larger exhaust, removing catylists, and any regen systems, really makes them come to life.
along with larger turbos,and injectors; 100% power increases seem possible.
it seems it does not effect durability much because we dont use the power for long periods of time,mostly passing and acceleration , a few seconds at a time.
now getting thru emission requirements may change things.
so who wants to try it 1st. LOL.
here in the states, we cant even buy the Audi TDI with a V12 diesel engine.
THX Ron
#4
09-14-2010, 04:39 PM
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a remap here in USA, costs around $150.-$400 US dollars, depending on level of tune.
the old mechanical injection systems i used to do myself at shop, increase fuel volume and timing, change injectors etc.
but electronics changed those procedures, but some software is becoming available the lets you readjust maps, using a laptop computor.
ron
the old mechanical injection systems i used to do myself at shop, increase fuel volume and timing, change injectors etc.
but electronics changed those procedures, but some software is becoming available the lets you readjust maps, using a laptop computor.
ron
#5
10-01-2010, 03:01 PM
A bit of technical information here....
The old diesel car engines used passive injectors of the indirect-injection principle which responded to fuel pressure in the line to each injector. If you rested your fingertips on a fuel line to an injector, you could feel the sharp pulse in the pipe at tickover. Pressure was about 2,500lbs/sq". Injection timing and quantity was controlled mechanically by the fuel pump.
Then came the "common rail" diesel. The common rail is just a bit of pipe, but it's pumped up to 25,000lbs/sq" by the fuel pump, and stays at that pressure all the time. It's an accumulator pipe.The injectors are now 'active' injectors, meaning they are actuated by solenoids contained inside the injectors. These solenoids are controlled electronically by the ECU, both as to quantity, speed of pulses and precise timing which is variable, something in the old system that was not easily done. The solenoid-controlled injector does three "squirts" per power stroke, the first small "pilot" squirt just B4 top dead to heat up the combustion chamber even more than the natural compression-ignition principle. This speeds up the main burning when the main squirt comes slightly later, enabling the DIRECT injection sytem AND reasonable revs AND a better fuel economy than the older indirect systems with lossy swirl chambers in cylinder head. The third squirt after main-burn is to deal with NOX emissions.
The piezoelectric injectors as fitted to your diesel Jag. are quite different, although they achieve the same objective in a better way. Instead of solenoids with their inertia, there is a stack of piezoelectric elements like a stack of very small coins inside each injector. A voltage of about 400volt is applied across the stack, controlled by the ECU, and the stack gets ever so slightly longer. This change is applied to an hydraulic amplifier (like a jack in reverse) which opens a valve allowing fuel to squirt. The force this can apply is truly enormous. This is all contained in the body of the injector. This system has virtually NO inertia, and is therefore extremely fast, so much so that there can be FIVE squirts per power stroke, resulting in even better fuel efficiency and even less combustion noise. The piezoelectric elements are well proved and tested, they have been around a long time in other common applications. I think the diesel ones were invented by Siemens, but don't quote me. As with the solenoid type, precise control of fuel and timing is easy. This is one reason your diesel Jag. is so quiet. As one contributor said so appropriately, "it's the most un-diesel like diesel engine I've ever encountered. And it really is. There is now a bigger one, the three litre, and I'd love to drive one, but no chance yet...
Leedsman.
The old diesel car engines used passive injectors of the indirect-injection principle which responded to fuel pressure in the line to each injector. If you rested your fingertips on a fuel line to an injector, you could feel the sharp pulse in the pipe at tickover. Pressure was about 2,500lbs/sq". Injection timing and quantity was controlled mechanically by the fuel pump.
Then came the "common rail" diesel. The common rail is just a bit of pipe, but it's pumped up to 25,000lbs/sq" by the fuel pump, and stays at that pressure all the time. It's an accumulator pipe.The injectors are now 'active' injectors, meaning they are actuated by solenoids contained inside the injectors. These solenoids are controlled electronically by the ECU, both as to quantity, speed of pulses and precise timing which is variable, something in the old system that was not easily done. The solenoid-controlled injector does three "squirts" per power stroke, the first small "pilot" squirt just B4 top dead to heat up the combustion chamber even more than the natural compression-ignition principle. This speeds up the main burning when the main squirt comes slightly later, enabling the DIRECT injection sytem AND reasonable revs AND a better fuel economy than the older indirect systems with lossy swirl chambers in cylinder head. The third squirt after main-burn is to deal with NOX emissions.
The piezoelectric injectors as fitted to your diesel Jag. are quite different, although they achieve the same objective in a better way. Instead of solenoids with their inertia, there is a stack of piezoelectric elements like a stack of very small coins inside each injector. A voltage of about 400volt is applied across the stack, controlled by the ECU, and the stack gets ever so slightly longer. This change is applied to an hydraulic amplifier (like a jack in reverse) which opens a valve allowing fuel to squirt. The force this can apply is truly enormous. This is all contained in the body of the injector. This system has virtually NO inertia, and is therefore extremely fast, so much so that there can be FIVE squirts per power stroke, resulting in even better fuel efficiency and even less combustion noise. The piezoelectric elements are well proved and tested, they have been around a long time in other common applications. I think the diesel ones were invented by Siemens, but don't quote me. As with the solenoid type, precise control of fuel and timing is easy. This is one reason your diesel Jag. is so quiet. As one contributor said so appropriately, "it's the most un-diesel like diesel engine I've ever encountered. And it really is. There is now a bigger one, the three litre, and I'd love to drive one, but no chance yet...
Leedsman.
#7
10-02-2010, 01:10 PM
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good info from both leedsman and richard!
i lately am double line typing also, true for us old timers, it is easier to read,
and Audi is starting a diesel injection program that is using up to EIGHT injection events, in one combustion cycle.
makes one wonder if we are reaching the end of diesel development(as is known today), i can see alternative methods of injection(like multiple fuel injectors)
one for effiency,MPG, and one for hi-power, with an addition of maybe water, for combustion cooling and chamber cleaning, so as to use a much higher compresion ratio(variable).
cooling injection can produce better swirl and mixing of combustion process.
and water is last to reach super heated steam and hold expansion for a longer time frame,= hi torque.
but do it at cooler temps, win = win.
many benifits. yet to come, with compression ignition engines.
thx ron
i lately am double line typing also, true for us old timers, it is easier to read,
and Audi is starting a diesel injection program that is using up to EIGHT injection events, in one combustion cycle.
makes one wonder if we are reaching the end of diesel development(as is known today), i can see alternative methods of injection(like multiple fuel injectors)
one for effiency,MPG, and one for hi-power, with an addition of maybe water, for combustion cooling and chamber cleaning, so as to use a much higher compresion ratio(variable).
cooling injection can produce better swirl and mixing of combustion process.
and water is last to reach super heated steam and hold expansion for a longer time frame,= hi torque.
but do it at cooler temps, win = win.
many benifits. yet to come, with compression ignition engines.
thx ron
Trending Topics
#8
10-03-2010, 03:40 AM
Not exactly a diesel development, but one nontheless to save fuel and therefore co2 pollution.
It involves completely shutting down engine when stopped at traffic lights and jams, but with a new twist.
The conventional starter motor, ring gear, solenoid, and even alternator are ditched in favor of a three-phase coilsystem mounted up against the flywheel which has strong magnets impressed in it. At startup, a variable rotating field is created by heavy electronics which drags the flywheel round until the engine starts in around 250millisecs. Silent, fast, and saves lots of parts.
This contribution is presented in old newspaper style as an aid to concentration for those who need it.
Leedsman.
It involves completely shutting down engine when stopped at traffic lights and jams, but with a new twist.
The conventional starter motor, ring gear, solenoid, and even alternator are ditched in favor of a three-phase coilsystem mounted up against the flywheel which has strong magnets impressed in it. At startup, a variable rotating field is created by heavy electronics which drags the flywheel round until the engine starts in around 250millisecs. Silent, fast, and saves lots of parts.
This contribution is presented in old newspaper style as an aid to concentration for those who need it.
Leedsman.
#9
12-26-2010, 05:11 PM
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HI Leedsman,, i have been reading over the development of the Jag diesel engine, true it was originally a Peugeot-Citreon unit, then Ford of Dagenheim UK, that developped it for some of there vehicles (i never heard of), and Jag wanted in to the plan also,(TATA).
some more useles info,LOL
some more useles info,LOL
#10
12-27-2010, 03:29 AM
Peugeot and Ford have been in bed together for a long time, especially over diesel engines. The Ford Sierra was popular here with the 2.3 diesel, very good indeed on fuel, if a bit slow. I suspect Peugeot did the work and Ford signed the cheques. The diesels fitted in Fords are called "Duratorque". Never underestimate The French and diesel engines, for cars they are the best there is, hence Jaguar using them.
Leedsman.
Leedsman.
#11
12-27-2010, 07:45 AM
#12
12-27-2010, 10:00 PM
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Have to say I for one am NOT a fan of French vehicles, however, some years ago I had one as a company car.
Some of you may remember the Peugeot 309? I had it in GLD form with a 1.9 diesel engine....this would be around 1991.
Now the 309GLD was generally considered a Dog of a car ( a square boxy thing ) but I have to admit I did grow to love it. I got it brand new with 7 miles on the clock ( delivery mileage )
In 3 years I put a little over 196,000 miles on her with not many issues all things considered. She was a little star and quite happily went up hill and down dale and blasted up n down the UK motorways, very rarely letting me down.....Tbh I did thrash her quite severely too, so kudos to Peugeot on that one!
#13
01-02-2011, 04:34 AM
I had mine remapped last summer (£199)
Torque shot up to 515 Nm (std booked as 434 Nm) after rolling road , reset MPG computer on way home from the remap on wheat looked like a relatively flat section of road, set cruise to 70 MPH (indicated by TomTom Sat Nav). 10 miles laster checked the MPG over that distance and was showing 52.1 mpg (thats UK MPG so would need converting to US mpg for USA members).
Had bought a Citroen Xsara Picasso 2.0 HDi for getting around the last 6 weeks with in snow (is MIGHTILY underpowered with only 90 BHP compared to Jag) and getting back behnd the wheel of my Jag the other day felt like I was in a Formula 1 car (you know the ones that are faster than the those Indy Cars
)
The Jag just keeps pulling and pulling , changes gear so smoothly you cant really feel it and then continues to keep pulling and pulling.In no time you are the wrong side of national speed limits.
Having had a tuning box on the Jag before the remap I think I will get a tuning box for £50 for the Peugeot as dont want to spend much on it.Hopefully it will get it up to 110 BHP to allow safer journeys.
I had an MR2 Turbo where I imported (from California) all sorts of tuning modifications (water injection,huge intercooler), Unichip to boost power and control everything, stainless exhaust, etc etc, but I dont think the Jag needs to be taken anywhere near that level of modification as the remap alone has made a very noticeable increase in performance.
Anyone thinking of a remap, get one
Torque shot up to 515 Nm (std booked as 434 Nm) after rolling road , reset MPG computer on way home from the remap on wheat looked like a relatively flat section of road, set cruise to 70 MPH (indicated by TomTom Sat Nav). 10 miles laster checked the MPG over that distance and was showing 52.1 mpg (thats UK MPG so would need converting to US mpg for USA members).
Had bought a Citroen Xsara Picasso 2.0 HDi for getting around the last 6 weeks with in snow (is MIGHTILY underpowered with only 90 BHP compared to Jag) and getting back behnd the wheel of my Jag the other day felt like I was in a Formula 1 car (you know the ones that are faster than the those Indy Cars
)The Jag just keeps pulling and pulling , changes gear so smoothly you cant really feel it and then continues to keep pulling and pulling.In no time you are the wrong side of national speed limits.
Having had a tuning box on the Jag before the remap I think I will get a tuning box for £50 for the Peugeot as dont want to spend much on it.Hopefully it will get it up to 110 BHP to allow safer journeys.
I had an MR2 Turbo where I imported (from California) all sorts of tuning modifications (water injection,huge intercooler), Unichip to boost power and control everything, stainless exhaust, etc etc, but I dont think the Jag needs to be taken anywhere near that level of modification as the remap alone has made a very noticeable increase in performance.
Anyone thinking of a remap, get one
#14
01-02-2011, 04:45 AM
I have a pdf document which goes into detail about the 2.7 TDVi engine, how the individual components work , detailed diagrams etc
Anyone wanting to get a copy can download it from
http://rapidshare.com/files/440370676/3_powertrain.pdf
It should be there for a few weeks
Also anyone wanting a parts catalogue (covers most Jags since 1995 including the new XJ) can download one for the next few weeks
Download it straight to your C drive (not a subfolder) extract it and place the shortcut onto your desktop.Clicking the shortcut opens the Parts Cat without any installation
http://rapidshare.com/files/440169102/Jaguar_Epc_v3__10.2009.rar
Anyone wanting to get a copy can download it from
http://rapidshare.com/files/440370676/3_powertrain.pdf
It should be there for a few weeks
Also anyone wanting a parts catalogue (covers most Jags since 1995 including the new XJ) can download one for the next few weeks
Download it straight to your C drive (not a subfolder) extract it and place the shortcut onto your desktop.Clicking the shortcut opens the Parts Cat without any installation
http://rapidshare.com/files/440169102/Jaguar_Epc_v3__10.2009.rar
#15
01-03-2011, 03:36 AM
So pleased you're pleased with your new, torquier diesel. I'm glad the old opponents of diesel engines for domestic passenger cars are fading away gradually, as car after car, diesels are proving better in every way than the equivalent petrol version. And most especially in these high-price fuel days. UK petrol and diesel have gone up TWICE today. UK petrol/diesel is now knocking on the door of £6 per gallon, say $9. I think US is still around $3 to $4 per gallon. Over here, WE ARE ENVIOUS!
If you want to convert mpgUK to mpgUS, use your calculator to multiply the figure by seven, then divide by eight (7pint US gallon is 8pint UK gallon & vice-versa). To convert litres to UK gallons, divide by 4.55.
During the recent cold snap in UK, the diesel engine was no trouble at all starting and running, excepting it got much thirstier as I do mainly short journeys. I'm experimenting with a sump heater, but it's so damned cold to be working on the car!
Leedsman.
If you want to convert mpgUK to mpgUS, use your calculator to multiply the figure by seven, then divide by eight (7pint US gallon is 8pint UK gallon & vice-versa). To convert litres to UK gallons, divide by 4.55.
During the recent cold snap in UK, the diesel engine was no trouble at all starting and running, excepting it got much thirstier as I do mainly short journeys. I'm experimenting with a sump heater, but it's so damned cold to be working on the car!
Leedsman.
#17
01-04-2011, 06:03 AM
I hear over and over, the high cost of fuels in Europe and UK compared to the US is all taxation. I don't have any hard numbers. Unfortunately, once the taxes are in place they are impossible to remove. The outlook in the near future for the US is grim from what analysts say. $3/gal is supposed to be only a quick stopping point to $5/gal in 2011 and maybe more. And, if that is just a price increase in the cost of fuel (not taxes), then I would imagine EU will see a matching increase.
#18
01-05-2011, 04:05 AM
The other day I checked the price of fuel in UK and Europe, and they all are approximately the same -- high!
The price of fuel here is, I think, more political than anything else. As a rough guide, about one third is the cost of the fuel itself, the rest two thirds is taxation of one sort or another. If you think the same political/economic factors apply in the US as they do in UK/Europe, then it's likely the price of US motor fuel will probably rise inexorably.
To me this doesn't seem fair on americans, as they are known for having to drive much longer distances than UK or European countries. FYI the price of a gallon of diesel/petrol is knocking on the door of $9/gallon here in UK.
Leedsman.
The price of fuel here is, I think, more political than anything else. As a rough guide, about one third is the cost of the fuel itself, the rest two thirds is taxation of one sort or another. If you think the same political/economic factors apply in the US as they do in UK/Europe, then it's likely the price of US motor fuel will probably rise inexorably.
To me this doesn't seem fair on americans, as they are known for having to drive much longer distances than UK or European countries. FYI the price of a gallon of diesel/petrol is knocking on the door of $9/gallon here in UK.
Leedsman.
#19
01-05-2011, 05:43 PM
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YEEKS; $9 per gallon, if that happened ih USA, with the present recession results, ther would be another 1775 rebellion, TAXATION WITH OUT REPRESENTATION, we got a silly tea party thing goin on, but not much help!
used to be for last 100yrs USA was the biggest user of energy, but only in last mths or yr, we are at 3rd down, China #1,, and India #2.
all this in my short lifetime, the world can change quickly, and usually not for the peoples liking.
just sit back and enjoy the ride.
used to be for last 100yrs USA was the biggest user of energy, but only in last mths or yr, we are at 3rd down, China #1,, and India #2.
all this in my short lifetime, the world can change quickly, and usually not for the peoples liking.
just sit back and enjoy the ride.