I'm looking at buying an XKE (69 2+2 automatic with A/C which is not operational but present). It's been sitting for 20 yrs (owner passed away) and was recently acquired by a fellow who has been getting it back running and has it offered for sale (as he continues to work on the car. He just wants to flip it. He has got the car running - cranks and starts from the key, he cleaned fuel tank, fuel pump, carbs, tune up, replaced many of the lines under the bonnet (fuel and vacuum I assume). Car needs a valve adjustment according to Owner, there is significant valve /tappet noise when it's running, it smokes like crazy (but he did put mystery oil in it before attempting to turn it over so i guess that's expected?).

Brakes go to the floor, I would plan to replace all the brake lines hard and soft, master cylinder and probably the calipers/rotors, or at least rebuild them.

Physically the body looks really good, it was repainted before it was stored, paint job isn't going to win shows, but its presentable and works for a driver (which is what I'm looking for), chrome and bumpers are present and shine, although far from perfect with some pitting and a little surface rust, rear bumper looks like it was straightened at some point, that might explain the repaint, body looks good gaps are all perfect and very straight.

OD says ~60K miles, interior is a mixed bag, door interior panels are missing, but the rest of it looks good, seats are in really good shape apart form a few holes (not tears or rips, they look like accidental puncture damage or slits not age related tears). The carpet, rear seats, and the rear compartment are really good condition, dash is for the most part complete, A/C front bezel is damaged. So I think it is actually 60K and not 160K, but no records to prove this.

So, what should I be looking for, my experience is in an Air Cooled VW, So I'm used to cheap and very available parts. E-types are a bit different in this regard and I've never had to deal with a car that has sat for 20 yrs, i'm not sure what to expect.
What can I expect in terms of parts that need to be replaced immediately or will likely fail once the car is back on the road?
Where are the hidden areas to look for rust? and how best should I inspect it? engine compartment, body, door sills all looked OK, undercarriage and floor boards are complete with some dents and what looks like misplaced lifts or jacks, but no significant rust.
What should I look for in terms of the engine? After sitting for so long i would expect it to leak a bit, but is there anything that would indicate really big trouble? is it just a forgone conclusion that this will need a rebuild right away? What is a typical cost for 4.2 rebuild? anything else that should be done at this point?
Any concerns with suspension components? What should I look for?
Any chance any part of the brake system is salvageable if it's totally dry at this point?
If i had to take the car in for the rear brakes (I don't have a lift) what should it cost to have them completely redone, and what else should be done at the same time, and what would the cost be?

I'm planning to go take another look at the car and really decide if i want it or not. Just want to make sure I'm looking at the right things and budgeting properly. I am hoping to do as much mechanical work as i can within limitations of a small garage and no lift. and relying on the experts for the more invasive and sensitive bits (Serious engine work, tranny, etc).

Thanks for the advice, I'm trying to temper my enthusiasm as I've loved E-types for ever and don't want to let that blind me when looking at this vehicle. Price is pretty good I think, It's in my price range, this one is local, i can inspect it, and I can get it for around 22K if it's still available.

-Conrad

 

The good news is that virtually all mechanical parts are available, (obviously after-market now, not Jaguar) and most others. However, you don't say why you want this car and what you want to do with it. Despite the vendor claiming to have done this and that on the car, what you have told us so far means you'll have to do quite a lot of work on the car to make it driveable on a regular basis. Having said that, there is no reason why you can't do all the mechanical stuff yourself if you have a reasonable garage, and can invest in the tools you'll need to do the work. With a UK-size garage I managed to remove the engine and gearbox of an XJ saloon and rebuild the engine around an uncracked block. I also did a load of work on the suspension front and back too, and also did bodywork at the rear using a small mig welder.

https://www.martinrobey.com/jaguar/e...ne-side-frames

The main problem with E-types can be the state of the bodyshell. These are a typical UK 1960s assembly so not very well protected against rust. Do you know where this car has spent most of its life ? Cars in the US that lived in the more southern states and where salt was not used on the roads tend to be much more long-lived. There is also the little publicised problem that can afflict the front engine cradle. The engine is mounted in a cradle like a WW2 Lancaster bomber, there being very little sheet metal forward of the bulkhead. The cradle mounts to the bulkhead at four mounting points and the suspension is also fixed to this cradle. The cradle was made of square section tubing bronze-welded together, made of "Reynolds 531" an alloy of steel that precluded normal arc welding. Being steel, these cradle tubes can rust through from the inside so need checking out. Replacements are not cheap, and use later Reynolds steel alloys like 631.

The key point to make is that you will need quite a large budget to bring this car up to snuff. There can be times when one can get quite despondent about progress and consider giving up. My Mark 2 took me seven years from a bare shell and I was still married at the end of it, and still am today !!

 

This is pretty much the least-desirable, lowest-value E-type variant.

If you're happy with the current condition and the 2+2 floats your boat, and you're fine with band-aiding it to keep it on the road, it might be a decent car to satisfy your desire to have something that LOOKS like an E-type.

If you want to actually experience driving an E-type as it was meant to be, you can expect to spend $50-100k on a restoration to "nice driver" and afterwards that particular car will be worth $50-60k in today's market.

If you really have the skills and budget to do a restoration, start with a car that has a higher potential end value.

 

I wouldn't be put off by the car being the 2+2 auto, because it will be a reasonably good introduction to these cars for a lot less money than if you buy the coupe or the roadster. Plus you can get the kids in the back !

The down side, of course, as 69ots says, is the car won't fetch the same money when you come to sell, but the parts are common across the models and therefore cost the same, so your spend would be the same as these more desirable models, may not necessarily put value into the car. But what the hell, does it matter too much ?

 

Thanks for the insight, here is some more of what i'm thinking: So I'm not looking to do a restoration in the sense of bringing it back up to original Jag spec. I don't have the expertise or time, I have 3 young kids so a car that is presentable but requires some mechanical work that I can do largely my self is what i'm after. I want to have a car I can work on and improve, find the missing parts, get non working systems back working and get it on the road and then keep it on the road.




On this car paint is OK and body looks good very straight, good panel gaps, I could not find any evidence of rust, I'm not sure where the car spent it's life, but the last 20 years have been covered in a garage after the owner died, and I believe 10+ years prior it was in NC (no salt on roads). I can't say beyond that as there are no records, this was a barn find and the daughter of the man who passed away didn't know much about it other than it was her fathers car, no paper work, manual, tool kit, or spare tire. Apparently it took her 2 weeks just to find the key for it. Paint seems to have a lot of orange peel, looks like a respray of questionable quality, but there didn't seem to be any over spray on seals etc, so they must have done some disassembly so it's not totally cut rate, It's good from far but far from good. So that's not great, but good enough for me and what I'd want to do with it (like others have alluded to, this is not a valuable Jaguar, as long as the body is protected and doesn't look embarrassing the paint is doing it's job). The 2+2 is not a huge deal, as I want a car I can drive regularly on nice days, take the kids to get ice cream etc... (just not eat ice cream in the car). The seats in the back are part of what makes this more interesting. Having a classic car that seats ONLY 2 means I can't drive it as often as it can't accommodate any kids (this is the situation i'm in now), it's now a requirement to bring a kid or two along so i need a bigger car.

The automatic is probably the biggest detractor, I really do want a manual car, but if I can do a little work to this one, find the missing interior panels and some other parts, get it complete and driving (safely) and I'm still in love with E-types, I can sell it in a few years (when the kids are out of day care and I have more discretionary income) and get the FHC that I really want. (kids be damned).

Thanks for the advice.

Conrad

 

I realize the 2+2 auto is the bottom of the barrel in E-types, but I'm looking for a car I can afford, one that I can learn on and work on myself, one I won't feel obligated to restore fully, and that i won't feel bad taking out and driving regularly, running errands and even the occasional commute when the weather is good. The car I've found is actually in really good shape physically, no rust apparent, paint actually must have been done shortly before being covered and stored as there aren't many scratches or blemishes (although it is orange peeled so not a great paint job). didn't appear to be any over spray. Panel gaps appear really good so the car is quite straight, glass looks good. It's all pretty functional... except of course the fact that the car has been sitting so there may be/are a lot of mechanical bits that don't function, or likely won't function for long. I'd really like to get some ideas of potential areas to pay attention to, and costs for getting some of these systems back up to snuff. (again, not restoration quality, i want to tinker on it and do as much as i can (with-in my limited capabilities) and then I'll take it to the experts for the more technical tasks.

I do have a few pictures of the car (below) the orange peel in the paint is pretty obvious up close under lights. I also have a video of the engine running right after the owner got it started. It does go into drive and reverse and move under it's own power, I'll try to attach that to another post. No brakes mean that is the extent of the transmission test.

 

Provided the price is right this sounds like a good starter for E-type ownership. Its a running car, so important when buying an old car not on the road for 20 years. paint and body look pretty good, but I think you said the brakes didn't work. Obviously this is your main point of repair. AFAIK all the parts for the brakes are available but of course are not cheap. As for the paint, orange peel can be cured but you need a lot of elbow grease to flat off the paint with 1500 grade paper, or maybe get a power tool to use. Then its a case of polishing with a power polishing mop. You can probably get the car to look a million dollars with some effort. It certainly looks as if the owner who put the car away cherished it and was going to do more but passed away before you could carry on.

E-types fetch such good money now there is a very active aftermarket, so you don't have to worry about getting parts, even well-made body panels. Have a look here on the parts pages for your model: -

https://www.sngbarratt.com/us/#!/Eng.../74/all/1/10/1

If you don't already know it, the rear brakes on these cars are inboard next to the differential, so maintenance, and repairs can sometimes be a PITA. The handbrake is well known for lack of efficiency and for seizing-up. The whole of the rear suspension is mounted on a subframe attached to the car via rubber mounts. There are actually four springs and shocks with the springs on the shocks like motorcycle units.

Other thing to mention is the front suspension spring is a long torsion bar that runs from the lower wishbone back to the front bulkhead. This avoids suspension loads being transmitted into the engine cradles. There is an adjustment mechanism at the bulkhead for setting the ride height.

 

If you can avoid shipwright's disease, your approach might work.

I'd get someone who knows E-types to look at it and point out all the problems, and if you look at that list and think "the most expensive 95% of these problems I can leave alone" you might be OK.

Hagerty says that car in #4 condition is about $22k. #4 condition is what it sounds like you're looking to have after you fix it up. So factor that into your pricing.


Going back to some of your specific questions:

Every piece of rubber. Every seal. Anything that got rusty while sitting. Same as any old car.

Every unrestored E-type is rusty. They rust from the inside out. The safe bet is that the cheap paint job is hiding a cheap bondo job covering rust. Check for filler, same as any old car.

In terms of having it operate properly and be a proper E-type, yes, it needs a rebuild. If it was properly stored and looked after then it might only need some seals. But I'm confident that that one wasn't properly stored.

But if you just want it to run to the icecream shop with the kids at city speeds, then if it runs it'll probably keep running. The XK engine is really tough and will soldier on even when in very bad shape.

A rebuild at a Jag specialist will run $10-15k

Rusted attachment points. Rotted rubber. Same as any old car.

The hard parts are probably fine.

I don't pay people to do stuff like that, and it worries me that a brake rebuild is something you'd consider paying to have done (given your aim at low-cost), and labor rates vary by a factor of 5x across this country, but I'll throw out a SWAG of $1000 in labor.

They are mechanically complicated compared to most cars of their day and light years more complicated than those air-cooled VWs, but I find mine pretty straightforward to work on. Get a shop manual and lean on the jag-lovers forum for advice.

An MT swap is one area where if you can DIY maybe you could recover a significant portion of the cost.

 

Hi ICON149,
I would suggest you read "E-type End Of An Era" by Chris Harvey. That is the first book I bought on E-types and has a lot of good information in it. I have the 1977 edition ( ISBN-10: 9780312224523 ) and Amazon has used copies for under $15 used. It's a cheap investment.

Cheers,
Bob

 

A note about that auto transmission you so correctly recoiled at:

The term "slush box" was COINED for these horrific BW transmissions Jaguar selected. I've a '72 V12 I bought new - came with a BW10 (or 12; can't remember & it doesn't much matter). The transmission sucked every last drop of torque out of the engine so that the car was more of a Pinto than a sports car. A little while back did one of those (stupid & masochistic) full strip down restorations (3 years and a debt free house anywhere other than California). Though i wanted to keep it original for value, that tranny HAD to go in favor of a more sane 5 speed. Probably dropped the value a lot doing this, but i kept the original slush box & all needed to go back to pinto status .... but that should give you a hint on just how repugnant these auto transmissions are. You should NOT fool yourself into thinking it would perform more-or-less like any other auto tranny you are familiar with, because it won't. It's HORRIBLE.

Thought you should know so you can make an informed decision.

 

First thanks for the input, and sorry for the effective double post. I posted my reply with the pictures and the next day i swear i checked it and it didn't come up so i figured i did something wrong or network had issues and i recomposed it (as best as i could remember). I've been covered up with work, travel, and prepping a couple of cars for sale so I've not been able to get back to this.

Anyone in the Raleigh Durham area want to take a look at an E-Type and give a totally noob some education on where to look for hidden issues? Help me make sure i go into this with eyes wide open?


This is clear, and I intend to take a close look (with magnet) at the car when i go back to see it again. Any specific problem areas to be aware of? anyplace where i should pull back interior panels or try to pull up carpet to find issues? The body appears to be basically rust free, and of course seeing underneath the paint and potential skim coat of bondo is difficult.

This is what i am hoping for, at some point, down the road, a long way down the road, i may opt to rebuild the engine, as long as it runs pretty well and doesn't leak or burn an obscene amount of oil, i'd want to push that out as far as i could.


I don't plan to pay anyone to do this type of work, this is exactly the type of work i'd like to do on a car like his, and this is part of the allure of owning the car, I only ask as i know that the rear brake set up requires getting the car pretty high up in the air and i don't have a lift. So it's just good to have a reference point for what this might cost and if i really want to try to take this on myself or just open the pocket book the first time round. I've seen a couple of threads on doing the work with jack stands and it looks reasonable.

Yes sir!

This is actually a very enticing thought (and one I've had), If and when the slushbox goes to convert to a 5 speed would make this a car i could keep for a very long time i think.

Thanks for the advice.

 

I've never had the opportunity to drive an E-type so this is actually really good information, I did look at the performance specs of the time and was quite surprised at how big a penalty the automatic is. I guess the silver lining is that since it has sat for 19 yrs, if and when the transmission gives up the ghost it will be no big loss and an opportunity to convert it to a 5 speed. I'm not sure i'm ready to take on that kind of DIY project, but perhaps after brakes, suspension and getting the 4.2 adjusted and tuned up i'll feel a little more saucy.

I am planning to go back and take a serious look at the car and if i can't find anything scary i think i'm going to pull the trigger. Gotta jump in somewhere right?

 

A '72 V12 E-Type is severely choked power-wise due to the smog regulations even with a manual box. A '69 will not be quite so bad, and even better, you can probably remove most of the smog plumbing. My heavy (2 ton) 1980 4.2 litre XJ6 had a Borg-Warner box and to be honest I found the performance quite adequate. Anyway, this will be a hobby car, surely ? You're not intending to be a wheelspin-to-wheellock guy once you've go the car on the road, surely ?.

 

You are correct, the major allure of the car is getting it back on the road more so than actually having it on the road, and finding and improving it over time (hopefully in a cost effective manner).

 

Is there anyone in the Raleigh NC area that would be willing/interested in coming and checking out a 69 2+2? I'd like to get back to see it this weekend and make a decision on whether i put it in my garage or not. I still just don't know enough about these particular cars to recognize what is a deal breaker.

Thanks.

 

The car you are considering looks like a great candidate for a person who's interest is working on an (endless) rolling restoration. If that is what you want - great! These days, that is one of the few economical approaches and it can be both fun and rewarding. Most of the answers so far seen to reply in the spirit of that interest.

Some of your comments, however, suggest that you might be less interested in the joy of 'tinkering' never mind surgery than this approach requires. So here is my (not at all) humble opinion.

There are only three approaches:

1) The one we seem to be discussing: buy an affordable car that is the best you can find and go forward knowing it will be an ongoing task
2) Buy a recent restoration
3) Buy the cheapest thing you can find that is mostly complete and do a full restoration

Notes:
- 2 and 3 basically get you a new car and they likely cost roughly the same (a lot)
- 1 and 2 have the advantage that you can start driving right away (and 1 is the least expensive)
- 1 and 2 have the disadvantage that you don't have a firm idea of how the future will unfold. (2 may just be slightly better than 1 and may hide some surprises)
- 3 does not have to be more costly than 2 (you control the level of restoration) and you definitely get to have certainty about the resulting car.
- the downside of 3 is it will take time before you get to drive your car.

The line between 1 and 2 is a bit blurry but 2 is a much higher price option (or you are being fooled or fooling yourself)

If you don't want to work on the car, 3 is the obvious choice. Even if you DO want to work on your car, 3 lets you select what you can do while setting a clear finish date and result.

 

I actually am interested in the rolling restoration. That is pretty much what I did with my VW, It had some serious body issues under the paint (I was young and dumb and short of funds when I bought it), so I never did any real body work since doing a decent job with paint would have cost a fortune to undo all the bondo and damage hidden under the respray. I've learned a lot from that experience so I know what to look out for (on a ghia) I assume many of the same areas are problem points on the jag + some.

I'm OK taking on most mechanical tasks, The only reason I mentioned being unsure of the rear brakes is because I know the IRS has to come off and I won't have access to a lift, although I've done more research and it doesn't seem as daunting as as i was first led to believe.

I also don't know much about the hidden pitfalls of the E-type and I also have never brought a car back after 20 yrs of sitting... my VW has always been a driver, and I just kept improving and fixing as opportunities arise (sometimes out of necessary others out of desire) learning and getting more confident as a mechanic as I went. The Jag in question does start and run on the key, (I've seen video not seen it running in person).

Now the jag as others have noted is a touch more complicated, but in the grand scheme of things, still a pretty straight forward mechanical car, which is what I'm after. My biggest fear is that I'll miss something obvious with the condition of the engine or body which had i had more experience I'd have seen, and I'll over pay because i did and blow my budget before i even get going.

I'll be honest, if it was a manual transmission I'd be more willing to take a chance... with an automatic i'm going to use this as a learning car... hope to use it to step up in a few years.

 

Usually, with E-types, the state of the body shell and the front engine cradles is the main problem. The rest of the car is relatively easy if you have done work before on cars, and have the tools. To get the rear subframe out, you'll need a jack with a high lift capability. Body panels are almost all available, being made in the UK by Martin Robey Ltd. Of course they are not cheap !

 

The first time I pulled the IRS out of my Jag (it was Dad's then) I was about 20 and my tools consisted of a $20 floor jack, $10 jack stands, and basic hand tools.

The second time I pulled it out, 20 years later, I had better and multiple jacks and stands, and most importantly a transmission jack. I'm not sure a lift would have made it all that much easier.

It does weigh a ^%$#ton so you'll need a helper.

Refreshing the IRS is probably a good "get to know you" task for these cars. You need to replace the rubber IRS mounts and brake hose as those are safety items, and you'll want to check the condition of the rest of the rear. Replacing all the rubber bits would not be a bad idea.

I'm not an expert on e-type rust so I'm not sure where to look for initial indications, but when they get bad it shows up in the sills and the trailing arm mount points. In general, if you can see any rust (I don't mean surface rust, but real rust) then don't buy it. A car with visible rust needs a lot of body work and won't meet your intended use.

Check the engine frames for any signs of rust or holes. Those are not repairable and expensive to replace.

Post on jag lovers to see if anybody is in your area who can look at it. The traffic here is like 1/1000 of that place.

 

Have you considered a later model Jaguar?

I too fell in love with the XKE when I was in college in the late 1960s. As a senior citizen, I have set aside my childish needs for a Jaguar XKE. If I had money to burn, I might have a different perspective on owning one.

I bought my first Jaguar a month ago. It was a 2005 Jaguar XK8 Convertible (73,000 miles). One week later I bought my second 2007 Jaguar XJ8 Vanden Plas (32,000 miles). These two cars look like as new as new can look.

The MSRP for these two Jaguars was $150,000. In today's dollars, I paid 15% of that amount.