I’m a visitor from the XJS forum with some comments/questions to E-Type owners. I’m comparing notes.

Does it ever happen in the E-Type forum that a V-12 E-Type owner disparages the straight six E-Type cars as “lesser” cars than the V-12 cars? This actually does happen In the XJS forum, where V-12 XJS owners certainly do this in regards to straight six XJS cars. In the E-Type forum this would translate to saying that the straight six E-Type cars are, simply, much inferior cars when compared to, say, a 1974 E-Type. Could this possibly be true? I sincerely do not believe so.

Has any E-Type owner in this forum ever heard some V-12 E-Type owner saying “An E-Type without a V-12 engine is just not an E-Type”? I just wonder about this because in the XJS forum it is quite typical to hear that “An XJS without the V-12 is just not an XJS”. They’re truly convinced and strongly express their belief that the straight six Jag engine is quite inferior to the V-12 Jag engine (and I assume that this includes the older XK6 straight six Jag engines) because the Jag V-12 is up there with the Ferrari or a Lambo V-12 class… Somehow I get the feeling that this is not the case in the E-Type forum, is it?

Cheers,

 

Never heard of that on any E-type forums. No cylinder envy from 6 cyl drivers, and no holier than thou from 12 cyl owners. Some E-type people have preferences for the series 1, 2 or 3 and a few talk down about the 2+2 shape so I guess there's always something for bad apples to bitch about.

 

Never heard of that, maybe because 99 percent of owners never drive the car
THAT WAS A JOKE......
The xjs 6 cylinder, is the most BULLET PROOF XJS BUILT!
Ive had them all from new, thev12 was exoctic but a real maintenance well lets say nightmare.
When they ran they ran great butalotof work.
The aj16 motor can go 200,000miles on oil changes.
if you want a true driver go with the aj16 motor or 6 cylinder.
All great cars though!
GTJOEY1314

 

Well, I'm sure glad to hear you guys confirming what I sincerely believe to be the case, myself. And you're absolutely correct in regards to the maintenance nightmare of the V12 (add reliability), which has an awful impact in your wallet, as compared to the highly convenient reliability of the straight six Jag. If there ever was a manufacturer of great straight six engines, that certainly was Jaguar for both, the awesome original XK6, multiple winners of Le Mans, and the strong and reliable, later AJ6/16. When you go into the facts, as in, original sticker price, reliability, cost and accessibility of repair and maintenance, fuel efficiency and "actual" performance numbers, it makes it hard to understand what possible reason there is to rate the V12 the superior engine over the straight six. But it happens...

Cheers,

 

I've owned 3 6-cylinder Jags and 2 V12s.

I can positively say that none of the 6-cylinder engines have been trouble free. Both XK type engines needed head gaskets replaced, for example. The AJ16 in my X300/XJR tormented me with multiple driveability issues over the years....although there's no denying it was very durable. None of my Jags have been 'drive-it-and-forget-it' type cars regardless of the engine and in the broad scheme of things it was other aspects of the cars....not the engines....that gave the most frustration.

Neither V12 has given me any actual engine problems (like head gaskets) but both have required quite a bit of catch-up work as the result of previous owners' neglect. And...the V12 ownership DOES require a willingness to learn. Lots of quirks to be aware of. For many, that's part of the enjoyment. If you are willing to learn, V12 ownership really isn't that much different than 6-cylinder ownership from a DIYer standpoint. I would never describe my V12 ownership experience as 'nightmarish'. That would be way off base. But experiences vary...as does each person's tolerance/comfort level. What I can shrug-off as no big deal might be nightmarish for others.

For many, like me, the V12 has a certain allure. I think it's one of those "either you get it or you don't" type of things. For some people owning an old house has an allure...even though upkeep can be more challenging at times. I wouldn't recommend a V12 to anyone who doesn't enjoy DIY repairs or isn't well-heeled. Paying retail for repairs requires deep pockets.

I don't disparage 6 cylinders cars or their owners. We all get to choose our poison.

The XJS was originally a V12 car and some believe the later 6-cylinder cars were a dilution of the original design. Less pure, I guess. Just as some E-type owners feel about the Ser 2 and 3 cars....the purity of the original was compromised.

Cheers
DD

 

My XJS V12 was a 'true driver'. It took me on countless 600-700 mile weekend jaunts without skipping a beat, and served equally as well as a around-town car. I would've gladly taken it coast to coast with no qualms.

It DOES take some owner commitment to get an old V12 car to that level of reliability and keep it there....but it's certainly doable.

My present V12 hasn't been given much of a test yet (I took a 6 cylinder car and converted it to a V12) but I expect the same result.

In 20 years of Jag ownership I've been on the back of a tow truck only once....and it was due to a slip-up on my part.

Cheers
DD

 

Actually, this was more about V12 XJS owners frequently stating that "An XJS without a V12 is not an XJS" and I'm sure that straight six E-Type owners (the great majority) will not much appreciate such statement if used in regards to the straight six E-Type cars. I just wonder if V12 E-Type owners think similarly.
Any out there?

Cheers,

 

It'll be interesting to read upcoming replies.

My guess...and that's all it is....is that more E-type devotees would prefer the original form of the car, Series Is with the 6-cylinder engines. Whether or not they openly disparage later cars and/or V12 cars is another matter.

Everyone has their favorites, naturally, but in the broad scheme of things it's common for the original form of anything the be held in high regard and subsequent versions less so.

Look at 1955-57 T-Birds. Or 65-66 Mustangs. Lite beer versus the original brew. A cover version of your favorite song versus the original version. And, commonly, people will say the newer version [of whatever] has 'lost the essence' or 'just isn't the same'.

Not that I've gone back and re-read dozens of postings but in all honestly I don't recall that happening. I don't recall that the 6-cylinder engines themselves are being regarded as inferior. It's more of a case where an XJS without a V12 is viewed as having 'lost the essence' and 'just isn't the same'.

Cheers
DD

 

Ive owned them all and still do.
He had one question which jaguar owners drift off into space....
IS A XJS WITH A 6 CYLINDER ANY DIFFERENT OR FROWNED UPON
You cannot compare a etype 4.2 . to a aj16
The 1995 thru 1997 aj16 motor and Ford saved the company
Ask anyone involved. Today the old xj6 is looked upon as the old Mercedes diesels they go on forever.
Yes you can have an issue but the cars are 20 years old!
As Ive stated before , there all great but the 6 cylinder is bullet proof compared to the rope seal v12.
Do any of you know what the spark box is or opus electric distributor or inboard leaking brakes from the heat....
oH ANOTHER GOOD REASON FOR THE LAST XJS , outboard brakes!
Enjoy guys.....
GTJOEY1314

 

Yes.


Add that fabulous powerhouse 6.0 V12 and you've got the best of everything

Cheers
DD

 

However, this was never manifested by market demand (i.e. sales, or public interest) once the AJ6 and AJ16 engines timely arrived to clean up Jaguar's tarnished name after years of the 5.3L V12 engine earning fame for significantly poor reliability, which BTW, created a very strong and successful market for the popular Chevy V8 conversions shops for several years here in America. This drastic, if dubious, alternative was no longer needed once the V12 Jags on the streets began to disappear. I suppose that, by then, it was too little, too late for the public to give a taste to that new V12.

Cheers,

 

Well, It was the KING in 1973, but times have changed.
In 5 years most of us will be driving electric cars, MANDATED by the government.
We will have gas, but for what?
Like owning a polo pony, it will be for the rich!?!
I guess that's us?
Our kids really don't care as Ive owned an insurance company for over 50 years with the entire family.
NOW 70% OF 16 TO 25 year olds did not get a drivers liscense or permit
Only 5 years ago it was 50%
They don't care and overall to lazy to focus on anything other than computer screens .
Work and earing a living will never come to pass...for that generation.
So if you want a v12 get it, you like a 6 get it, YOUR DYING WITH IT MY FRIENDS!
I dont have enough garage space for all of them tee hee.....
Last cowboy standing
GTJOEY1314
P.S.READ CAREFULLY, I JUST DROVE MY 2004 ASTON MARTIN VANQUISH V12 FROM NEW YORK TO ALASKA AND BACK IN 10 DAYS!
I get the whole v12 thing and the 30 grand in maintenance as well......
Enjoy.

 

You could very well be right. And it's a shame, because the 6.0 V12 didn't have as many quirks as the old 5.3s....plus it had the amount of horsepower one might expect from a V12.

But let's not forget pricing as well. By 1995 the difference in price, V12 vs 6 cylinder XJS, was about $20,000. About $30,000 difference on the XJ sedans. That's not insignificant even to a well-heeled Jag buyer. I guess you *really* had to want a V12 bad.

Additionally, as the years went by, the XJS was marketed differently. By the time the face lift cars came along Jaguar was pitching the XJS as more of a personal luxury car with decreasing emphasis (or even mention) of performance characteristics....thus even less interest in a bigger engine.

And Jaguar itself probably lost interest in the V12. It was an old design and probably not cheap to build. Infusion of Ford dollars meant V8s and superchargers were the future, not nursing the old V12 along.

The Jag V12 isn't the right choice for everyone but, still, it has its adoring fans who love it for what it is, not what it isn't. Warts and all. It's emotional, not pragmatic. As I said earlier, either you have an appreciation of that sort of thing....or you don't.

In a sense, being a V12 fan is just the same as being a Jaguar fan...but taken a bit further. Even the Jags with the best reputation are not care-free cars intended for a pragmatic person. I've never met a Jag enthusiast who expected a drive-it-and-forget-it ownership experience; they've all been willing to accept that Jags require more TLC than ordinary cars. That extends to V12 enthusiasts as well....they're just willing to accept a bit more, that's all. Not that hard to understand. And, from the other direction, not that hard to understand that not all enthusiasts have the same tolerance levels as others.

Cheers
DD

 

Meanwhile, returning to your original posting, what are your thoughts on posting #8 above?

Cheers
DD

 

OK, about post #8.
First, let me assure you that I'm not making things up here because I happen to vividly remember several occasions when XJS forum members expressed their belief that "An XJS without a V12 is not an XJS" and, to make it worse, several other members ganged up and jumped in to confirm and support such statement. You must remember that I have actually written posts on this subject in the XJS forum on several occasions (which I'm highly aware that it will be taken as equivalent to stirring the s..t) and all I've always gotten is an avalanche of blind, if bordering in sarcasm, reactions from V12 XJS members and I happen to know fellow members who have been witness to this. This is something that truly drives me to wish that the XJS forum could be split between straight six and V12 members. Very different individuals and that type of member(s) is something that I can live (or use the forum) without.

OK, now back to cars... I see your point, but it isn't necessarily the rule. Original versions have not always been held in higher regard than later versions necessarily, as there are examples of the exact opposite in the case of some top brands. Take the Corvette, itself, where the original car with that tame "Blue Flaming" 235 CID six and the subsequent small V8's of the fifties did not make the impact later achieved by the beautiful new shape and the new record breaking performance with the over 400 CID and over 400 HP of the next generation C2 cars that today make them the more popular and preferred (and at a higher price/value) of the two Vettes first generations.

Then there is the Porsche, where the 356B/C Porsche of 1963 with its tame 95 HP, 1.6 L flat 4 couldn’t offer the slightest hint in regards to the impressive fashion in which the upcoming 911 series cars were going to change the world of performance cars forever, along with making the 911 by far the most popular and desired of all Porsche's. In 1964 the 911 changed power to 148 HP going to 190 HP in 1969 from the 356's humble 95 HP, but this was really only the beginning of the legendary 911 stellar trajectory that was to come.

The '69 and '70 Mustangs, particularly the Boss and the Mach I cars, have for a while been more popular, much more sought after and fetching higher prices than the '65 and '66 models. Then everything collapsed starting the 70's when the US government killed HP and performance by forcing unproven smog control devices on those otherwise great existing engines. This could've created a good reason for higher preference for the earlier '60's muscle cars over later models.
Cheers,

 

Omg

 

I know you're not making things up. I remember the conversations and that several people have expressed the sentiment that you are objecting to. I have never said otherwise. In fact, my postings in this thread have specifically mentioned that sentiment and I've made an effort to explain it.

You've also said, in this thread:

These remarks are where I disagree. I genuinely don't recall anyone making such remarks. I'm 99% sure they didn't. I'm fairly certain that the people you are referring to owned or have owned various 6-cylinder Jags and like the 6-cylinder engines as much as you and I do.

If anyone is making an effort to criticize a particular Jaguar *engine*, it's you.


I know. My assumption was that you actually like "stirring the s..t" and like seeing the same result over and over.....as it must've been very clear that you weren't gonna change anyone's mind.


It seems to me that you are taking the "A REAL XJS has a V12" remarks as a personal insult and want a special place where nobody will disagree with you. Perhaps you've forgotten that other members *have* agreed with you and shared the same sentiment as you do....so you're not alone in the XJS section as it presently exists.

I'm quite sure that the V12 crowd is not intending to be personally hurtful. My son-in-law teases me all the time that the beer I prefer is ****-water and a REAL man would be drinking xxx-beer...a REAL beer. He doesn't mean any harm; we jab back and forth; it's become a tradition. We laugh.


Agreed that it isn't necessarily the rule; never said otherwise. I offered it up as a possible (and, IMO, entirely plausible) explanation for the sentiment you are apparently taking personal offense to and feel that you need to be isolated against.

Cheers
DD

 

Omg again
did your spouses but a little blue pill in your oatmeals?
gtjoey

 

Heh heh, nope ! I'm merely in love with the sound of my own voice and don't tire easily





Cheers
DD

 

I imagine that this is because the XJ-S was first produced with the V12; some unkind journalist described the early six cylinder cars as a "Jag with half a heart", and the rep stuck. Rather unfair, especially given that the early V12 was not very powerful, and was almost invariably coupled to a rubbish three speed slushbox which killed the performance.

The E type is rather different; the six is the "real" E type, the twelve a rather sad, fat middle aged version, in the opinion of most who owned them way back when they were just cheap used cars.

Having owned 3.8 litre sixes, and a V12, I consider the six to be a far superior car; faster, more accelerative, more reliable, better handling, more economical, and in FHC form especially, much, much better looking. The only way in which the twelve is better, is its stopping power, the six can, however, be easily upgraded in that department.
The twelve's deficiencies are not so readily addressed.