Help! I need an expert to assess the reason for the engine failure on my 2015 Jaguar F-Type V8.

Dealer delivered my Jaguar 6th of November, 2021. Twelve days later, on my way home from work, a 7km drive, within 3km, I heard a strange noise that got progressively worse. About 1km from my home, I pulled over and immediately called KMS Auto, a veteran of 50 years of service in the auto industry, to come to collect the vehicle.

Once the car had cooled down properly, they added water; and discovered that the water was flowing out from the right corner of the car. They then put the car on the lift for investigation. On removing the covers, they found that a coolant pipe had come off because someone did not replace the hose clamp (see photos)

KMS Auto refitted the hose and clamp, refilled the coolant, and pressure tested it. The coolant system held pressure for 20 minutes, whereafter they started the car to bleed the system. At first, there were bubbles which slowly became less and less. After 5 to 10 minutes of bleeding and the vehicle idling well, they drove the vehicle. Within 1km, the engine management light came on. A plume of white smoke came out of the exhaust, and the engine immediately started misfiring; they returned to the workshop and informed me that I should take it to the Jaguar dealership that had previously worked on the car.

The Jaguar Dealership refuses to take responsibility even after reading the KMS Auto report and seeing the detached lower coolant hose. (See photos) The dealership has a record of replacing the water pump, upper and lower coolant hoses. There is proof of them working on the cooling system.

Jaguar Dealership Statement: At 109077km, P007B-22 was logged and indicated lost water in the system. The water loss created an increase in the air charge cooling system that logged a DTC. The customer's technician indicated that he reinstalled the pipe, filled the system, bleed and pressure test (not as per JLR procedures). After this, they did a road test; the DTC logged a misfire shortly after. This concluded that the vehicle had stopped in time because no further dtc was logged, but the incorrect procedures that were followed indicated by the dtc damaged the engine.

Would you please help me? I am in the fight of my life, and I am only searching for the truth. It isn't easy when everybody is just looking out for themselves. Cost to repair engine $26 000 (R410, 000)


Point of failure image: Lower coolant hose


EVENTS BY DISTANCE

 

No doubt the failure resulted from the dealer's faulty repair. And, the damage may have already been set in motion before your original breakdown. I'm not really surprised that they're pushing back on the cost of replacing an engine, but it's their fault. I wish there were an better/quicker answer, but you should stay politely insistent, be prepared to take them to court, and be without the car for months. Oh, and don't be surprised if your lawyer wants to name both shops in the suit - the better to let one "convict" the other without you stuck in the middle.

Ask them if they will provide a substitute vehicle while it's being repaired, or whether they would prefer you include the cost of a rental in your suit. If you have an alternative drive available, use that as a point that you're being reasonable in your request. (I've done that on insurance claims and it eased other points of negotiation.)

 

My guess is you warped the head(s) from excessive heat. They are going to blame you (maybe rightly so) for not seeing that the car was overheating and continuing to drive it.

 

Thanks for responding. This has become a court issue and, with that, a costly issue. I'm hoping that a Jaguar technician would pick up on this post and offer to look into the facts on hand and explain the events by distance codes and what it all means. I need an expert to say the point of failure caused the engine damage and 100% not because of the coolant change done and the 3km test drive done by KMS Auto. Undoubtedly someone mechanically knowledgeable can set the actual record straight.

 

I constantly observed the heat gauge while driving home; it's hard to miss in the F-Type; it was not in the red, which I find very strange. The only reason why I pulled off 1km from home was that the noise was getting progressively worse. I thought I was possibly dragging something under the car.

 

Picked this up from another forum and pasted it below which may explain why the heat gauge was not in the red while I was driving:

Couple things you should be aware of. First, "the temp gauge looked ok" is not a good indication of what is actually happening, due to the temp gauge being buffered (buffered means a large change can happen with no noticeable change on the gauge).

 

Yes that was the point I was going to make. These are not really gauges at all unfortunately. Many, many people have over heated and destroyed their engines and the temperature gauge (Indicator?) did not give any warning at all. We have been told that customers did not like the temperature gauge moving around and would bring their cars to the dealer with a complaint. This resulted in a ton of service calls that were not problems at all just different running conditions that caused the gauge to move somewhat. So they fixed that and now the gauge does not move much if at all from the mid point of the scale regardless of what's going on.

This does not help you now but I regularly run Torque Pro and an OBDII dongle with a custom screen that includes actual engine temperature. What's even more strange on the V-8 is there is no way of measuring oil pressure!! Unbelievable for a high performance engine!

Good luck and I think it will be difficult to prove the clamp was not reinstalled properly by the dealer.
.
.
.

 

I'm curious. Did you have any independent inspection of this car prior to purchase? Since you've had the car such a short period of time prior to the event....how many miles did you put on the car before the failure? What is the current mileage?

 

Is there a low coolant light on these cars?

 

Yes.
Well not really a light but a message on the dash (in the middle screen between the speedo and the tacho).
From memory the message is "Coolant Low".
A few years ago one of the two thin brittle plastic tubes of the expansion tank pipe split and leaked a fair bit of coolant out, and the message came up.
The expansion tank was around 1.5 litres down/below the minimum mark, with about another litre remaining in the bottom of the tank, so plenty left in the system and the radiator. I topped up with distilled water and drove the remaining 4 or 5 km home, and the message popped up again just as I got home, and when I checked the expansion tank level had again dropped to around 1.5 litres below minimum.
I watched the temp gauge like a hawk the whole way and it never budged a micron, my theory is that the leak in this case was high up in the system and the leak stopped once the level dropped to a certain point.
At the time I didn't know how the temp gauge worked but now that I do I would not drive it again once that message shows!
I also believe that the message doesn't show until the coolant level in the expansion tank drops to at least 1 litre below the minimum mark.

 

OP, you have an uphill battle. Even if the independent didn't touch the car, explaining how you missed the warnings is going to be a problem.

 

I disagree with some/many of the opinions to this point. You bought a car...The dealer had the "Last Clear Chance" - Legal Doctrine to rectify (or not cause) the issue. You drove the car and "but for" the hose not being put on properly, nothing would have/should have happened to cause damage. This relates to the chain of events to the damage. Put another way...If they(dealer) HAD put the hose on properly, would there have been a need for a tow, or an independent repair, or subsequent failure? You have a duty to perform typically as a "Reasonably Prudent Person" would and if you absolutely knew the car was overheated, you cannot intentionally destroy it. But it sounds like when you felt it was at a point of concern, you stopped and called the repair facility. With the weak indicator and lack of gauge on the cars...it helps your case as well.

From your story, it sounded like even after the Independent work was done, it was about 1 KM to grenading...So likely would have, whether you addressed it or not. It is not a slam dunk case, but you certainly have a good case to present if the dealer won't repair it. As far as them denying they did it...When you went to the independent I assume they pulled it up and saw the issue...There are your witnesses.

Also...The dealer is held to a much higher standard than you, and is considered the EXPERT in this example...not you.

Again...Some things to maybe consider as you pursue your claim/case. Not 100% Slam dunk...But very good chance to prevail...IMHO

Good luck!
DC

 

I agree with DC. I think this would have played out the same for any of us. The first and least expensive step would be for your lawyer sending a letter to the dealer detailing the many points in your favor as listed above and threatening suit if the dealer fails to agree to the repair at their expense. It may be cheaper for the dealer to accept responsibility than to fight it in court. Good luck and let us know how it progresses.

 

The dealer did a (PDI) pre-delivery inspection before the sale. The dealer drove the car to me, which was a 500-mile drive I took delivery of the vehicle, and I drove 310 miles in 12 days. Cars milage is 67700 miles.

 

The dealer sold me a ticking time bomb, and when it exploded because of their poor quality work and management procedures, they ran for the hills and blamed everything and anybody but themselves.

See point of failure image when the coolant hose detaches there are little to no warning things happen suddenly with the result being sudden death.

 

LET'S HAVE A SIMPLE POLL VOTING EITHER FOR SCENARIO 1 OR 2

The decider, in this case, is quite simple. It's one of two scenarios.

Scenario 1

We're saying that it is more likely and blatantly obvious to any sane minded person that the catastrophic damage was caused by the lower coolant hose detaching itself because Jaguar did not secure it correctly or at all, resulting in the bridge being broken between the radiator to the water pump, which keeps coolant flowing through the system? Once the bridge broke, coolant gushed out, causing the engine to rapidly overheat, resulting in catastrophic damage to the engine.

Scenario 2

Jaguar is saying that the damage to the engine only took place after the auto mechanic with 30 years of experience reinstalled the hose, filled the system, bled. Pressure tested the system (albeit not as per JLR procedures), then test drove the vehicle for 1km, only at this point did the catastrophic damage occur to the engine, for these reasons stated above they are taking no responsibility the blame falls entirely on the Auto Mechanic.

A quick reply will be appreciated saying which scenario you have voted on

 

While I vote for scenario one. it really doesn't make a bit of difference in persuading that dealer. I fully support the Letter from the Lawyer idea... businesses tend to stay away from litigation and often will just ante up to get out of it... however, this is a pricey repair. How deep are your pockets? the litigation could be costly, but it is also the principle of the matter. If anything, this horrible experience has been information and helpful to the rest of us. I wish you the absolute best for a positive outcome.

 

Thank You

 

You need to go speak to a lawyer. Right now it is costing the dealer nothing to refuse responsibility. They may have liability insurance to cover this kind of screwup btw. Whether they do or not, working with a lawyer is your best course of action now.

 

Scenario 1 all the way. Dig in and don’t let the dealer bully you. As said, a well worded letter from your lawyer will add weight. Good luck mate!