Active Forum members have seen a few of my posts recently regarding choices to be made in moving out of my lovely P300.

Love the car enough to DO SOME MORE !

Background:

about 14 months ago I saw a 2018 F type S AWD on a local used car dealers lot.

Curious, I just went to "LOOK" then the sales guy literally throws me the keys and says, go have some fun.

Well, I did and the journey began.

I drove the **** out of this 6 cylinder AWD, around town, on the interstate and on the twisties.

Although the AWD stuck in the curves, and yes, I was pushing her hard, the "feel" was disconcerting.

Not squirrelly, it just didn't feel right.

No drift, no feeling of the a$$ end kicking out a bot, no need to countersteer, the car just "stuck" kind of like in a video game.

Went to CarMax and drove another P380, but it seemed weak compared to the first car.

On a lark I did a WHAT THE HELL and test drove a lightly used 2.0 at the local JLR dealership and was surprised and impressed with the power and handling.

I do love my P300 RWD, she came from the factory with 20" wheels and handles predictably.

Yes, even with the 300 HP you can easily break the rear end loose in a turn, depending on engine RPM and I absolutely love this car.

She was great on TAIL OF THE DRAGON last fall, and honestly I have some sadness about letting her go with that great Ragazzon exhaust, but I am really lusting after the 8.

I'm here in SW Florida, running Michelins, and don't foresee any runs up north for the snow/ice issue.

Currently looking at several NEW 450 Dynamic 2WD and one 8,500 mile HEAVILLY LOADED 2023 450 AWD.

I've lightly driven a 450 in traffic, heavily driven a 575 in straight line situations and am aware of the difference in feel/balance, with the heavier front end weight.

I'm not the guy doing burnouts at the traffic light, and as an old school guy who grew up driving and drifting in the snow, I'm OK with the RWD

All things being equal, I'd choose the RWD for the predictable handling, less weight up front and no transfer case/cv joints/stuff for future repairs and maintenance.

BUT..........the 8,500 mile 450 AWD has every conceivable option and has a significant pricing advantage over the new 450's which will see some serious depreciation numbers the first 3 years.

So here I am, searching for some advice from the FORUM BRAIN TRUST to get some feedback before diving all in.

If I go with the AWD will I become a believer?

Or will I be thinking.... ya should have gone new with the predictable 2WD and the full 60 month, 60,000 mile warranty

Your comments are appreciated.

BEST !

RWS

 

I would try and get some more time behind the wheel of the cars you are considering before you pull the trigger on one.

 

I'm old school and if my 2021 F Type R had been available with RWD and a 6 speed manual I probably would have gone that way.
But I have become a believer in the ZF 8 speed automatic and have gotten used to the heavy feel of the AWD V8 F Type. It takes a slightly different technique to drive it than the numerous relatively light and "tossable" sports cars that I have owned in my lifetime. I live in the mountains and "bendy roads" are pretty much all I have. The AWD along with Jaguar's Adaptive Dynamics technology (and new Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires) makes the car corner like it is on rails. So far, the only time I "think" I really felt the AWD's presence be suddenly noticeable was one time when flooring it from a dead stop. It seemed like the AWD kicked in and made the front tires really hook up to compensate for the spin of the rear tires and it really launched.

As others have suggested, if you can get a little more drive time in that would be great but a good deal on a heavily optioned P450 AWD with only 8500 miles would be very enticing.

 

In late 2016 I was looking at the F type Rs and due to price I was going to be happy with a RWD car, They as you know are RWD in 2015 - but in viewing Motor Trend testing by Randy Pobst my mind changed. I had the pleasure of knowing Randy in his early days, he was a magician with a little Rabbit in Autocross. We (including his at the time wife Linda) started Road Racing together and the rest is history - he's one of those gifted folks behind the wheel with much professional success. I saw back to back motor trend tests, his driving and commentary - of a 2015 R and 2016R. He talked of how much he liked the AWD with regard the handling.

Since I occasionally get on tracks and I'm older now (not as practiced as my earlier years), I decided to wait for when I could afford a 2016 due to the AWD. It was a great decision. If you have read my posts regarding track events and handling - I think it is great (I turn Granny off - first setting). Since I now have both pulleys and tune from AP Services, it's outright phenomenal. The last Porsche school where they needed instructors - I had a chance to run it with not even the same power level (only the crank pulley and tune at that time). It was outstanding. Each student I had wanted to ride with me and they were all quite impressed at how the 4000# car was a beast.

Yes - the AWD V8 is heavier BUT I highly doubt you would regret it. The best part is wheel spin in straight line launches - you mentioned you like that. Even with another the additional 90 to 100 more ft.lbs. of torque than factory - if I'm somewhat judicious with the throttle at a launch it's blazingly quick. The weight is not quite the enemy I thought it would be.

 

Actually I am NOT a launch guy.

Not gonna try to beat the vette at the traffic light, and not going to the track, but I do love the DRIVING ASPECT of these very unique cars.

That first V6 I drove (maybe it had a tune, I don't know) stuck to the twisties, but I had no comfort level in controlling it, as it was all new to me, whereas the RWD is more predictable.

The scary thing for me - - - - we've all seen those Mustang videos where they show off, lose control and have a major accident at 20 MPH.

It's been said that those situations are caused by THE NANNIES overcompensating with brake application, throwing the car into a spin.

Just not really a fan of the nannies and giving up control, but I'm the same guy who kept a flip phone forever too, so maybe it will grow on me.

Like Bruce has said in another thread, it's not the 176 lbs of extra weight, it's the PLACEMENT of that weight and the heavier steering.

Is there any torque steering felt with the AWD?

BEST !

RWS

 

hmmm.... it's sounding like maybe you're looking for someone to blame in case you make the 'wrong' decision. No thanks.

just pick a path, grasshopper, and you'll probably get it right..

 

Path, no, but you're funny !

I was hoping for a road less traveled, with fuse 15 unplugged

BEST !

RWS

 

Go for the 8300mile P450. AWD isn’t the end of the world, especially with how hilariously rear-biased the car is tuned to be. The less depreciation hit you take the better as well. I say do it. The biggest “regret” you’ll have is having more grip. It’s still an F Type and that’s what’s most important.

 

I've never felt any in my 6 years with the car. Had lots in my previous company FWD cars though, so I know what I'm missing!

 

To your comments one by one. ..."That first V6 I drove stuck to the twisties, but I had no comfort level in controlling it," I thought I misread you the first time, but then now I read it again - Is it the fact that you actually HAVE good control without slip what bugs you?! That additional traction is exactly why I wanted the AWD. IMHO its easier to drive at the limits because you're not fighting the yaw tendency of the car.

"we've all seen those Mustang videos where they show off, lose control and have a major accident at 20 MPH" ... That is total ignorance - idiots with NO experience doing stupid stuff. AWD and nanny combined will prevent that. I'd be willing to bet in those instances they are turning OFF traction control so they CAN spin the tires thinking that looks cool. Those are the exact scenarios where inexperienced drivers get in big trouble. What you'll find is that that default traction control steps in long before you've swapped ends. You feel a loss of power and RETAIN control. Here the AWD and nanny are your best buds.

'THE NANNIES overcompensating with brake application, throwing the car into a spin' IMHO total BS. I've driven quite a few cars at the limit (including the Jag) when nanny steps in and no way does it initiate a spin. My biggest challenge on a track with lots of years experience is that since I have a feel for when there is some slip (at either end), just as I'm starting to compensate and correct with minor steering wheel corrections - nanny coincidentally is stepping in. It's a minor 'argument' I then have with the computer because I've already sensed it and started to correct by the time she steps in so we argue with each other (minor back and forth corrections by me). To clarify - this is at the full limit of traction on a race track. For this reason I disengage the first level of nanny and I have a chance to do my normal minor corrections before she steps in to 'help'. I can't ever imagine you would come anywhere near that. Nanny will step in, get you to the speed you need to be with the car steering just as you direct the steering wheel to be.

"Like Bruce has said in another thread, it's not the 176 lbs of extra weight, it's the PLACEMENT of that weight and the heavier steering." I've driven many, many cars on race tracks instructing for various club track events. What impressed me so much about this car (other than the greasy PZeros my first track event after 10 minutes) was how so well balanced the car was. When I replaced the PZeros with the Mich P4S tires, had the tire pressures dialed in - IMHO it drove with tremendous aplomb. In one of the other posts you see me reel in an older SC Vette (instructor group) that had more power and 500 lbs. less weight. Yes, he'd pull me in the straits, but I finally caught up to him and he realized he was slowing me down and let me by. That was the AWD enabling that because in turns that's where I was reeling him in.

"Is there any torque steering felt with the AWD?" Zero.

 

I can't begin to tell y'all how much I really do appreciate all this information.

My own 4WD background is a chain drive transfer case with cv joints and axels.

When AWD came out and we didn't have to get out and lock in the hubs, we thought it was really something.

Still, there is a world of difference between the two, and no more vacuum pull offs needed to engage/disengage.

When one considers someone else has already paid the initial depreciation of the '23 AWD car, and I 'd be paying that initial depreciation on the new 450, well all the better.

The collective minds on this FORUM are such a valuable resource, and to those who contribute, please accept my thanks.

I guess this puts an entirely DIFFERENT SPIN on things for me as compared to when I first posted this query this morning.

BEST !

RWS

 

PUNNY!

 

I know that several of us have tuned the v6 while lowering it with stiffer springs which I believe gives you a lighter feeling RWD car [comparatively speaking] that has "enough" power and super flat handing. It's a nice combo.

 

Have AWD. Have never felt the car's front end interfere on a twisty. The car is so rwd biased that it is almost really rwd....tire wear to prove that on this end too.

It has in no way intruded on things in corners for me except in snow or if I had it set for snow/rain. In normal and dynamic, the car feels RWD - but if you push the go pedal at exit it has more grip and you slingshot out if you so choose. On the street one could say all corners are slow corners...and awd always is faster in slow corners.

So for me, no downsides. They all weigh too much by 500 lbs.

And that is in the dry. In the wet, the awd all day every day.


(I like the fact that if it senses I need it, it will kick awd in automatically....this is the same company as Land Rover...they really understand awd....there is a reason many high HP cars are awd....the real world has imperfect roads, bad weather, and non-track drivers out there....you can use all the safety you can get...frankly, JLR did an amazing job to make the car feel RWD while being awd and ubercapable...better than BMW, AUDI, and MB in my opinion - have driven all of these...probably equal to a 991awd or perhaps even more rwd...and that is high praise....have not tried a 992 but probably no better...might even be worse (the 992..if turbo) because the supercharger lets you control the torque better).

 

Awd a must! ,you wont smash the car up when your in a turn, and when it rains and snow there still useble,

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...y_faster_tyre/

(same on youtube: )


AWD vs RWD with a good driver and a powerful car. The weight of awd in an F type is not enough to change things imho.

 

I have a 2015 R RWD, with the standard bolt ons, tune, and high flow cats, probably around 650hp or maybe a little north on a good day. In no way has the car "wanted" to spit me into the hedges, nannies on or off. These cars are well balanced and communicate pretty well for what they are designed to be. AWD vs RWD folks can debate all day on the pluses and minuses of each - RWD lighter but in any traction limited environment will not be as fast on the road as AWD. Also RWD demands more of the driver, and I kind of like that - it feels more like an animal because it does have more edge to it (for better or worse). Not necessarily going to be the fastest one around a track, but I prefer a little more thrill/pucker factor potential than getting those last few tenths So just depends on what you like - see if you can get some more time in both.

 

Moving forward with the 2023 AWD, 8,500 mile choice, .vs a new 450 2WD

This car is heavily optioned, as was the P300 First Edition, even has 770 watt surround system and windshield defrosters.

Same Fuji White as the current 2021 P300, but has oyster white seat surfaces

Gonna keep my current wheels and tires.

40 months of warranty remain, maybe a light tune is in my future?

THANKS AGAIN TO ALL WHO HELPED HERE IN THE FORUM.

BEST !

RWS

 

One thing I will mention about the handling is related to your grip on the steering wheel. I once owned a Mazda RX7 GSL-SE that did not have power steering. It was a light car at about 2400 lbs. Steering took some effort when parking but once rolling it was fairly light. But I got in the habit of always having a firm grip on the wheel. But for the last 30+ years all of my cars have had power steering and I have been lulled into a bit more of a relaxed grip style when driving.

However one day while driving my newly purchased F Type I gave it a little too much gas when I had the front wheels not pointed exactly straight ahead. The amount of torque almost yanked the wheel out of my grip but luckily I quickly corrected. I can see how some of those foolhardy drivers on the YouTube videos end up hitting the curb. Too much power + not having the car pointed straight ahead + a light grip on the steering wheel and next thing they know and they are out of control, try to compensate and bingo. A wrecked car.

The moral of the story is don't drive your F Type like it's some numbed down over boosted Cadillac and you only need two fingers on the wheel and you are out for a Sunday cruise. It can get away from you before you know it if you do.

 

You will be happy with either one, @bfrank1972 said it very well, the unruly nature of rwd adds to the allure of the f type, and that’s enough for me to choose the rwd, twice.