BMW to supply Jaguar with Twin-Turbo V8s
#41
The AJ V8 Jaguar engine was never a Ford engine. Made in Fords engine plant for Jaguar, but not a Ford engine.
THE JAGUAR AJ-V8 ENGINE / AJ6 Engineering
THE JAGUAR AJ-V8 ENGINE / AJ6 Engineering
#42
#43
#45
Aston Martin is getting that V8, from what I have read it's mixed emotions. Some like it, some hate it. Hope it will sound as nice, but turbos never tend to sound as nice as NA engines or supercharged engines. The price of progress.
#47
I think the Ingenium strategy is absolutely the right move as global fuel economy regulations and powerplant energy densities seem to point to the 4/6 platform as the right place for Jaguar to be if it wants to future-proof the Ingenium investment (i.e. create a long enough useful horizon to amortize its large investment).
The consequence of the concentration of resources is the need to outsource the V8 engine further. There are few scale providers of V-8 supercharged engines and the ones who are providing today are not necessarily going to do so in the future (Jaguar needs to think several years in advance here). So a move to turbo makes business sense as a direct consequence of the Ingenium strategy.
That doesn't mean I like it, but it seems like a rational decision driven by financial and business realities which us car guys don't like :-)
BTW there will be no supercharger whine, but V8 turbo engines can still make very distinctive sound....there are lots of examples here.
#49
I understand the business case for outsourcing a low production engine, but the business case for putting a BMW engine in a Jaguar is flawed IMO. At that point you have removed a large part of what makes a Jaguar a Jaguar and differentiates it from other brands. Would you buy a Corvette with a BMW engine in it?
#50
I thought the Ingenium engine architecture was going to allow Jaguar to set it up for V-8 production as well.. or at least I seem to recall reading that a year or so ago. Turbo charged engines I suppose win the efficiency battle, yet with the relatively small number of V-8's that Jaguar would sell the hope would be that they would have room for supercharged V-8's in the R lineup.
Regardless of economics and efficiency of R&D capital, the more I think about BMW supplying Jaguar, the more it turns me off completely to the R brand.
Lawrence.
Regardless of economics and efficiency of R&D capital, the more I think about BMW supplying Jaguar, the more it turns me off completely to the R brand.
Lawrence.
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jaguny (08-03-2016)
#52
#53
The AJ V8 Jaguar engine was never a Ford engine. Made in Fords engine plant for Jaguar, but not a Ford engine.
THE JAGUAR AJ-V8 ENGINE / AJ6 Engineering
THE JAGUAR AJ-V8 ENGINE / AJ6 Engineering
The real answer would be who makes the raw castings for it before they are machined (block, heads) and who owns the tooling used in assembly. My guess is it is a Ford parts supplier or foundary and Ford tooling.
One thing is for sure, Ford is not letting Tata use their plant for free. At a minimum they are getting royalties out of the deal and I think that makes the decision to switch an easy one. Better efficiency, better performance numbers, lower cost in terms of powertrain integration (they will likely use identical transmissions to BMW). I would agree with others here about superchargers vs turbos, but the public doesn't really get that. They are looking for a peak number and the cars will still be plenty fast.
Last edited by auburn2; 08-06-2016 at 03:41 PM.
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schraderade (08-06-2016)
#54
The article is correct, it is not based the current or any previous Ford V8 although I would still consider the AJ engine a Ford engine. It was originally designed by Jaguar engineers when Jaguar was part of Ford, likely with help and software from Ford powertrain. It was was used in about 200,000 Ford/Lincoln cars, it is assembled in a Ford engine plant and you can still get some parts for it over the counter at a Ford dealership if you know the part numbers.
The real answer would be who makes the raw castings for it before they are machined (block, heads) and who owns the tooling used in assembly. My guess is it is a Ford parts supplier or foundary and Ford tooling.
One thing is for sure, Ford is not letting Tata use their plant for free. At a minimum they are getting royalties out of the deal and I think that makes the decision to switch an easy one. Better efficiency, better performance numbers, lower cost in terms of powertrain integration (they will likely use identical transmissions to BMW). I would agree with others here about superchargers vs turbos, but the public doesn't really get that. They are looking for a peak number and the cars will still be plenty fast.
The real answer would be who makes the raw castings for it before they are machined (block, heads) and who owns the tooling used in assembly. My guess is it is a Ford parts supplier or foundary and Ford tooling.
One thing is for sure, Ford is not letting Tata use their plant for free. At a minimum they are getting royalties out of the deal and I think that makes the decision to switch an easy one. Better efficiency, better performance numbers, lower cost in terms of powertrain integration (they will likely use identical transmissions to BMW). I would agree with others here about superchargers vs turbos, but the public doesn't really get that. They are looking for a peak number and the cars will still be plenty fast.
#55
I think claiming that BMW engine cheapens the car is a bit hyperbolic. That is state of the art power plant that will likely be shared with M4. I fully expect F-type with the new engine to out-perform existing cars both in economy and raw power. I also expect that Rs will be available with a manual gearbox.
Still, I'd rather have a supercharged car. It has more 'flavor' and no turbo lag. At the same time, JLR didn't tune existing engine to maximum potential - torque curve is outright regrettable and more like what you'd expect out of turbocharged engine. If you ever drove naturally aspirated V8 Mercedes you will know how it could/should be done.
Still, I'd rather have a supercharged car. It has more 'flavor' and no turbo lag. At the same time, JLR didn't tune existing engine to maximum potential - torque curve is outright regrettable and more like what you'd expect out of turbocharged engine. If you ever drove naturally aspirated V8 Mercedes you will know how it could/should be done.
#56
So, if Ford is kicking them out, what's their alternative? Perhaps they had no other choice. It could well be that the BMW agreement was the only V8 deal they were able to negotiate.
Would folks have felt better if it had been a deal with GM for the LT4 (Z06 engine @ 650HP/650TQ)?
Would folks have felt better if it had been a deal with GM for the LT4 (Z06 engine @ 650HP/650TQ)?
Last edited by Foosh; 08-11-2016 at 12:27 PM.
#57
#58
I do not really have anything to add here, but....I am also disturbed with the idea of a BMW turbo or any turbo. I would like to see the manufacturers offer a sports car with natural aspiration or, at worst, a supercharger. Porsche is already on my blacklist. It is claimed that environmental requirements are driving them to turbos because requirements will no longer be fleetwide. I can only cry about that. If Jaguar does indeed move to turbos in the F-Type then the only thing I can really examine for my next car is the Vette. I hope they are at a C8 by then, that looks more like a Jaguar.
Larry
Larry
#59
As far as we know now, there is nothing preventing you from holding onto existing supercharged F-type for many years. Newer isn't always better, as older 911 Porsche prices can demonstrate.
The only two issues are so far long-term concerns - carbon build up due to DI, and chain wear due to carbon nanoparticles. Both are manageable with forward-looking preventive maintenance.
The only two issues are so far long-term concerns - carbon build up due to DI, and chain wear due to carbon nanoparticles. Both are manageable with forward-looking preventive maintenance.
#60
If JLR wanted it they probably couldn't get it. Which leads me back to my original speculation that JLR may not have had much, if any, choice of high-performance V8s, once Ford kicked them out. The BMW may have been their only choice.
Last edited by Foosh; 08-11-2016 at 03:09 PM.
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SinF (08-12-2016)