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I realize this is Jaguar forum but adults should be able to compare facts objectively.
z4 beats 450 in every function except leather quality. The look, brand perception, layout are subjective preferences and its great we have choices.
z4 comparing with regular 450 RWD is faster, drive better, has much better electronics, has HUD, more reliable, has better resale value and even bigger trunk.
I do not have z4 and do not plan to buy one . Probably will buy 2022 R because I like the look and its AWD.
I realize this is Jaguar forum but adults should be able to compare facts objectively.
z4 beats 450 in every function except leather quality. The look, brand perception, layout are subjective preferences and its great we have choices.
z4 comparing with regular 450 RWD is faster, drive better, has much better electronics, has HUD, more reliable, has better resale value and even bigger trunk.
I do not have z4 and do not plan to buy one . Probably will buy 2022 R because I like the look and its AWD.
If you want a Z4, buy a Z4, it's that simple. You can find any numerical 'hard stat' to try and justify things, but as myself and others in the thread have already pointed out, a lot of people purchase cars not for the numbers but for how the car makes them feel. Do I care if <insert name of some other car> is faster to 60mph than my P450? No. Do I care if they have a higher top speed? No. Do I care if they are cheaper to insure or cheaper to run? No. Do I care if they will do sick drifts yo? No. I bought my P450 for no other reason than it makes me go weak at the knees just looking at it. I've mentioned this anecdote before (maybe on here, but I don't recall), but back when I was working I turned up to a customer's home just as the customer was parking up her Aston V8. Also in the garage was a 911 Turbo, so being a bit interested in cars I got chatting. She had set herself a target to buy a brand new Aston outright by a certain age and she worked every hour she could, building her own business, to achieve that goal. Her husband's Porsche was a 'better' car in most respects - nicer to drive, cheaper to insure, cheaper to run (servicing costs on the Aston were silly), more reliable, blah blah blah. But the Porsche didn't do the one thing that she bought the Aston for, it never made her just stop and stare at her car. She would often leave the front door 5 minutes earlier than she needed to, just so that she could stand and stare at her car before setting off. The Aston made her FEEL something. It also got treated by more respect from other road users, but that was a nice bonus. The Porsche was 'just a car' to her and her husband, albeit a very fast and very capable one, but it lacked soul. I sort of understood what she was getting at, but it wasn't until I bought the P450 that I truly GOT what she was saying, because I feel exactly the same way.
As an aside, re. the Z4, I cannot stand this current trend for sticking the infotainment system on the dashboard in an almost "oh crap, we spent so much time designing the dashboard that we forgot we needed to put this display somewhere, that's OK, we'll just superglue it here it'll be fine" afterthought fashion - something that always annoyed me about my old Mazda 3. And the less said about the huge touchscreen panels the better. Cars with that sort of 'stuck on' display are an instant "no" from me, unless it is mounted so far down that it almost blends in, but even then it smacks of poor car design. There's also something about some car dashboard designs that just feel 'cold and distant', but I couldn't sit here and tell you exactly what it is, but I know what I don't like the moment I'm staring at it. The Z4 (and a LOT of other cars) fit firmly in the 'do not like' category.
Last edited by Cluck; 10-13-2021 at 05:41 PM.
Reason: correct a typo
Cluck: you have summed it up masterfully. A brief story: A number of years ago, because I had bought an XK (X150 - a modern classic!) i had to make room in the garage. The car that had to go was my as-new, very rare (only 100 built, last year of production, individually numbered) V12 Vanden Plas. It was a classic Jaguar in terms of design elegance, its sumptuous walnut and leather, the glorious V12...but it had to go. It was seen at an international concours event by a Chinese businessman. A week later his interpreter called me and asked if I would show the car to this gentleman; we spent most of an afternoon, driving, inspecting, communicating through the interpreter...but we could not come to an agreement about price. In short, the negotiation failed...until the moment when the interpreter said "Mr xxxx says that this car has a soul". YES! He understood! The car is now in his collection in Beijing, and I regret selling it (see my post #11 above) because you always regret parting with a Jaguar. Sometimes the regret is immediate, but often it comes after experiencing a car of a different marque. They just don't MOVE you in the same way. Faster, possibly, but not deeply. The Aston Martin is very much like the Jaguar in its appeal.
What people fixated on performance figures simply fail to grasp is that in the final analysis what is really important to most of us is indeed the way an automobile makes us FEEL when we look at it, when we settle inside, when we drive it, when we listen to the engine and exhaust...And this is precisely why an electric car holds no attraction for anything other than transportation needs (and I have driven the big Tesla - blisteringly fast, but utterly devoid of soul, aptly characterized by its budget interior and the gigantic i-pad).
And I say this as a not-yet-recovered BMW/Mercedes owner. They are machines, good machines, but nothing more.
The one (1992 V12 Vanden Plas, #92/100 built, colour: Black Cherry) that had to go to free up garage space:
because this beauty (2007 XK, colour: British Racing Green) took its garage space:
which was subsequently taken by the current denizen (2015 F-Type V6S, colour: British Racing Green Xirallic):
Everyone of them so much, so very much more than a 0-60 figure can ever represent.
I realize this is Jaguar forum but adults should be able to compare facts objectively.
z4 beats 450 in every function except leather quality. The look, brand perception, layout are subjective preferences and its great we have choices.
z4 comparing with regular 450 RWD is faster, drive better, has much better electronics, has HUD, more reliable, has better resale value and even bigger trunk.
I do not have z4 and do not plan to buy one . Probably will buy 2022 R because I like the look and its AWD.
I have never owned a BMW. My two step-children each received a brand new 3 and 4 series [respectively] soon after they got their licenses [yeah, I know] and I will tell you that those two cars were junk. Plastic everywhere for cars approaching 50K.
I am a car guy for over 60 years and I don't know anybody who likes the way a z4 looks. That side, I am sure it must be an nice car, but I wouldn't be caught dead in one. OTOH, an F Type is a truly exceptional car...gorgeous inside and out, fast, and has the quality few cars have ever been able to achieve...the ability to thrill its owners every single time they are in its presence.
Comparing a z4 to an F Type is like comparing Phyliss Diller to Grace Kelly.
Chasing numbers will always lead to disappointment. Like anything else, right after you buy, something better/faster/cheaper will come out. It's a never ending trap. Let's face it, buying any car like these is a bad decision.
Buying an F-Type is the best bad decision I ever made.
Cluck (10-13-2021),JagGuardian (10-14-2021),khlee (10-14-2021),Portlander (10-13-2021),scm (10-13-2021),sov211 (10-14-2021) and 1 others liked this post. (Show less...)
I traded a 20 month old Mercedes SLK55 AMG for my Jag, it was a really good car. Every time I looked at one I knew. The AMG was crazy fast in a straight line, way more than the Jag. But I wouldn't trade back for any reason, it's a Jag!
It's funny how highly regarded the Jag is over in the US, perhaps because it's something different. But here in Europe (I'm in the UK) they rank way below the German rivals. I would never ever consider a daily Jag like a XE\XF\F-Pce, very poor brand, but premium prices. In fact I had a E-Pace courtesy car a few months back, plastic fantastic.
Definitely lot of rose tinted glasses being worn on here. This is my first Jag, but had over 15 BMW's. BMW without doubt are far far better made, not just in terms of reliability, just look at the awful door\bonnet alighnment on the F-type they still can't get right 8 years on. Underside corrosion, sticky steering wheel controls, awful Meridian sound system, soft paint, the list goes on. If you've never driven a proper ///M car, then you should. Will quickly show up the F-type dynamics. Technology, not just in the car, but under the bonnet is hardly revolutionary. The love to drag a product out.
I will probably consider a Z4 M40i to replace my V6S. BMW ownership is just so much better here in the UK, Jaguar dealers are totally uninterested and useless. I do love my F-type, most fun and best looking car I've owned, but it's getting on. I do so fully understand what people are saying regarding comparing stats etc. I would definitely consider a V8 F-type, but the gap in the UK is just getting bigger and bigger and no longer the performance bargain that attracted me to the F-type in the first place. Would cost $45 to upgrade from a 2013 V6S to a 2017 AWD V8. Or $15k to get into a Z4 M40i with 1500 miles on the clock. As someone who buys cash that's a big jump.
It's funny how highly regarded the Jag is over in the US, perhaps because it's something different. But here in Europe (I'm in the UK) they rank way below the German rivals. I would never ever consider a daily Jag like a XE\XF\F-Pce, very poor brand, but premium prices. In fact I had a E-Pace courtesy car a few months back, plastic fantastic.
Definitely lot of rose tinted glasses being worn on here. This is my first Jag, but had over 15 BMW's. BMW without doubt are far far better made, not just in terms of reliability, just look at the awful door\bonnet alighnment on the F-type they still can't get right 8 years on. Underside corrosion, sticky steering wheel controls, awful Meridian sound system, soft paint, the list goes on. If you've never driven a proper ///M car, then you should. Will quickly show up the F-type dynamics. Technology, not just in the car, but under the bonnet is hardly revolutionary. The love to drag a product out.
I will probably consider a Z4 M40i to replace my V6S. BMW ownership is just so much better here in the UK, Jaguar dealers are totally uninterested and useless. I do love my F-type, most fun and best looking car I've owned, but it's getting on. I do so fully understand what people are saying regarding comparing stats etc. I would definitely consider a V8 F-type, but the gap in the UK is just getting bigger and bigger and no longer the performance bargain that attracted me to the F-type in the first place. Would cost $45 to upgrade from a 2013 V6S to a 2017 AWD V8. Or $15k to get into a Z4 M40i with 1500 miles on the clock. As someone who buys cash that's a big jump.
There is nothing in the world worse than BMW fanboy. They are even worse than a Ducati fanboy. I worked in a BMW dealership for a year and when the shop foreman who has worked on them for most of his life tells you they are junk, guess what they are, junk. The only way I would take a BMW is if somebody would give me one and then I would sell it or trade it. The newer ones are an electronic mess.
But here in Europe (I'm in the UK) they rank way below the German rivals.
Yeah, you can't open your eyes in the UK without seeing an ugly German Eurobox. Why people think they've "arrived" when they drive a BMW or Mercedes (both excellent taxis in Europe, of course) is beyond me - I suppose there's comfort in being one of the (very big) crowd. I guess some people can't stand being different. And as to not using a Jag as a daily driver - mine have been daily drivers since 2007, and have been very reliable, never let me down. Unlike that German Golf I had, dreadful car. I did like my Opel's, though, but again, not one of the crowd.
There is nothing in the world worse than BMW fanboy. They are even worse than a Ducati fanboy. I worked in a BMW dealership for a year and when the shop foreman who has worked on them for most of his life tells you they are junk, guess what they are, junk. The only way I would take a BMW is if somebody would give me one and then I would sell it or trade it. The newer ones are an electronic mess.
Actually, there's nothing worse than someone with opinionated views based on what someone else says. Mine is based on over 15 years of BMW ownership and an array of models probably clocking up 250k miles. I've never had a major component fail in that time on any BMW, yet, my F-Type has a new supercharged, failed O2 sensor, corrosion brace issue, plus a few other minor items.
No disrespect, but just because you worked in a car dealer that doesn't give much weight to your argument, yet to come across someone who knows their stuff, next job will be selling bathrooms. Also, you do realise a shop foreman's job is to fix broken cars, no wonder he's exposed to quality issues. Do you think the equivalent Jag guy is only changing oil, nothing to fix. There's a very good reason the JLR group are drowning at the very bottom of the JD Power reliability list. That's not an opinion. Suspect the only reason they sell in the US is because they give cheap leases.
I don't expect much back-up on this forum with it being a Jag fanfare, just conveying my experience of ownership across the two brands.
J.D. Power’s 2021 Vehicle Dependability Study brand rankings (problems per 100 vehicles)
One of the things I have discovered in my short 5 month ownership of an F Type is that almost anytime I stop somewhere, I get positive comments and questions from people. Some of them know what it is even if they don't know the fine details. Some of them don't know what kind of car it is but when told it is a Jaguar they get a smile on their face. Like they have some recognition of the legendary name and exotic reputation even if they aren't "car guys" or women.
They are also a car that you don't see very often, adding to their mystique. Regarding reliability, I was well aware of Jaguar's less than stellar reputation in that category for a long time and it pained me. But trust me, I wouldn't have even considered a new F Type if I wasn't confident that the new(er) cars were much improved regarding reliability. I am skeptical of the JD Power report without knowing exactly what was considered a "problem". JD Power's reports on owner satisfaction give Tesla one of it's top spots. Does that mean that Tesla owners are happy that they own a P.O.S. ?
Take it all with a large granule of salt.
There's a very good reason the JLR group are drowning at the very bottom of the JD Power reliability list. That's not an opinion.
These numbers don't always tell the full story. As expected, those with the lowest production numbers will be near the top of the list. I would also contend that it doesn't rank the problems and they count a lot of various issues all together which not all are really "dependability" issues. i.e. they also count people complaining about infotainment or interior issues. I would contend a brand that has people complaining about infotainment verses having complaints about driveline reliability are on two different levels but that ranking does not go that deep.
That being said, my experience with BMW was love and hate. My first 2 years of ownership I had replaced:
Clutch
Clutch sensor
Headlight ignitor
Engine fan/clutch
Falling door trim
Cracked interior plastic door pieces
The clutch was curious. BMW blamed me for not knowing how to drive a stick, however I am literally a race car driver. A TSB came out a few years later on the initial clutches shipped with the cars but I had already been through the pain so it didn't matter. I will say, after the first 2 years of ownership, it did stabilize and spent less time in the shop but initially it was a painful.
I do understand that not everyone has the same experience who purchases a BMW. Just like my experience with Jaguar is opposite of yours but I also understand that not everyone has my experience. That being said, with any car, it's really the luck of the draw if everyone "on the line" were doing their jobs or not for the car you purchase. You can get a lemon with any manufacturer unless you are buying cars at the "one-percenters" level.
Dude,
I can’t add anything that hasn’t already been said.
you’re considering buying a Jag!
A V8 super charged unhinged beast that looks better and sounds better than anything in that price range.
what else do you need to know?
good luck with your decision
Actually, there's nothing worse than someone with opinionated views based on what someone else says. Mine is based on over 15 years of BMW ownership and an array of models probably clocking up 250k miles. I've never had a major component fail in that time on any BMW, yet, my F-Type has a new supercharged, failed O2 sensor, corrosion brace issue, plus a few other minor items.
No disrespect, but just because you worked in a car dealer that doesn't give much weight to your argument, yet to come across someone who knows their stuff, next job will be selling bathrooms. Also, you do realise a shop foreman's job is to fix broken cars, no wonder he's exposed to quality issues. Do you think the equivalent Jag guy is only changing oil, nothing to fix. There's a very good reason the JLR group are drowning at the very bottom of the JD Power reliability list. That's not an opinion. Suspect the only reason they sell in the US is because they give cheap leases.
I don't expect much back-up on this forum with it being a Jag fanfare, just conveying my experience of ownership across the two brands.
J.D. Power’s 2021 Vehicle Dependability Study brand rankings (problems per 100 vehicles)
Lexus (81)
Porsche (86)
Kia (97)
Toyota (98)
Buick (100)
Cadillac (100)
Hyundai (101)
Genesis (102)
Lincoln (106)
Acura (108)
BMW (108)
Chevrolet (115)
Mitsubishi (116)
Mazda (121)
Mercedes-Benz (122)
Ram (123)
Dodge (125)
Mini (125)
Subaru (125)
Audi (127)
Nissan (128)
Ford (130)
Infiniti (137)
Jeep (141)
GMC (143)
Volvo (143)
Honda (145)
Volkswagen (163)
Chrysler (166)
Tesla (176)*
Jaguar (186)
Alfa Romeo (196)
Land Rover (244)
You amaze me. You come to a Jaguar forum and badmouth Jaguars and tell us all how great BMWs are and claim to be an expert on BMWs just because you have owned them. I have worked with mechanical items since I was 6 years old t include farm machinery, main battle tanks and high performance motorcycles for over 40 years on the street and the racetrack and I have a lot more faith in the opinion of a master mechanic and shop foreman than any so called expert just based on his ownership of the particular brand or type of vehicle. I do not go to BMW forums and tell everybody there how great Jaguars are. My experience with BMW's is based on dealing with them everyday for a little over a year. You want one, go get one but don't send the bill to my house
What other car brands have our visited?
I've owned corvettes, camero's, and porsches.
I now have a Jaguar F-type S manual transmission and as a sports cars goes, it does not perform with the other cars i've owned.
It is very pretty though. I get alot of compliments on it.
You might want to consider leasing. Four years ago I was smitten by the F-Type when a friend in California bought one. (I live in Western NY).
That interest spawned a lot of F-Type research on my part, running configurations, looking at resale values etc etc.
While I was in the midst of this research I happened to watch a YouTube post that caught my attention. The gentleman was reviewing the F-Type, discussing it's strengths and weaknesses. When it came to the financial aspects of owning an F-Type (or any Jag) he made the following statement: "Jaguar resale values sink like a stone - a stone with a lead weight attached to it." That statement + the reputation that Jags have for high maintenance costs and sometimes questionable reliability as they age prompted me to look at options that would allow me to protect myself against these exposures.
At the time (and it may still be true today), Jaguar Financial had some very attractive lease rates. I recently turned the car in as the lease came to it's conclusion. It was the most beautiful car that I've ever owned (P340, BRG w Windsor Leather, 6 sp MT, flat bottomed steering wheel - all the nice little options that made the car special). Do I miss it? Yes, a little bit, but it was time to do a refresh, and leasing provided me with that opportunity. You can buy the car at the end of lease if you decide you want to keep it, or turn it in and get a new one, or get something completely different.......the best of all worlds.
10-13-2021, 07:04 AM
A TSB came out a few years later on the initial clutches shipped with the cars but I had already been through the pain so it didn't matter. I will say, after the first 2 years of ownership, it did stabilize and spent less time in the shop but initially it was a painful.
