I love reading all the threads on engine oil and the debates it creates, but haven’t seen anything on additives such as my JLR dealership recommended and poured into my baby girl last oil change.

BG Products, MOA and CF5
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First is CF5 BG CF5®PN 203Fuel deposits that build up on intake valves, ports and in combustion chambers in high-efficiency engines can cause serious drivability problems. The most common of these problems are rough idle, loss of performance, reduced fuel mileage and engine knock. Also, water, oxygen, and sulfur are often present in varying amounts in the fuel we use. Even trace amounts of these contaminants can lead to oxidation and corrosion in storage tanks and fuel systems.

BG CF5® fuel system cleaner prevents deposits throughout the entire fuel system. Added at each oil change, it will keep injectors, pistons, fuel intake components and sensors clean and free of damaging deposits and corrosion.

BG CF5®

• Restores fuel economy
• Restores horsepower
• Prevents increased harmful emissions
• Maintains engine performance

BG CF5® restores power and efficiency and protects against the harmful effects of ethanol. BG CF5® is an excellent fuel stabilizer and is catalytic converter and oxygen sensor safe.

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And second:BG Advanced Formula MOA®BG Advanced Formula MOA® is formulated with 100 percent synthetic chemistry to protect engine components and fortify all brands of engine oil over extended oil change intervals.

Long drain intervals, 10,000 miles (16,000 km) – some as high as 15,000 miles (25,000 km) – are quickly becoming the norm in owner’s manuals. Unfortunately, longer time between oil changes puts a lot more strain on engine oil.

Extended oil change intervals provide a lengthy incubation period for carbon deposits. Even high-quality synthetic oils will degrade eventually. Unless the oil is fortified with enhanced protection against high heat, premature and hard-to-remove deposits will form on many engine components.

The potent detergency and antioxidant system in BG Advanced Formula MOA® prevents engine oil degradation and thickening under even the most severe stop-and-go, high temperature driving.

BG Advanced Formula MOA®:

• Allows safe extended oil change intervals
• Ensures reliability of critical engine components
• Prevents excessive oil consumption
• Extends engine life

Any of you guys care to share your thoughts, is this stuff needed, voodoo, or merely a gimmick?

 

There are different types of additives. In general terms, anything that goes and stays in the oil or coolant are very bad idea. Fuel additives are a toss, some work and some do not, it all depends on what in them.

BG CF5 is an injection cleaner. I don't have opinion on this one, I use BG 44K that is formulated for direct injection engines.

BG Advanced Formula MOA is likely a snake oil and would void your engine warranty. Recommended oil already has all the necessary additives, at best this does nothing. At worst, it causing deposits and extra wear.

 

BG has one of the most extensive research and testing programs of any of the additives manufacturers. I use MOA with every oil change and, in a former life, worked with them to develop specialty racing and street fuels using some of their various additives. I am only familiar with the 44k fuel system cleaner (original formulation), but that was not specifically formulated for DFI engines. The CF5 may now serve that purpose.

 

Following.

As recommended on the forum, I used BK44 in the gas tank for the 250 miles prior to this year's oil change.

I also used the CRC GDI Intake Valve & Turbo Cleaner as recommended here (to spray down the backsides of the valves) before the oil change.

I haven't read the Link above, but I know someone's gonna ask "HOW MUCH P.E.A. IN THE DEALER'S PRODUCTS? "

 

unhinged: I’m thankful for your contribution to this forum and happily reassured seeing you use the MOA in your own car. I was caught off guard when my JLR Dealer recommended the two additives which come in a wrapped package from the parts department at 50 bucks which was 8.00 more then I can buy it on Amazon, but what’s 8 bucks when your already spending 180.00 for the oil change.

 

Why do you think this specific oil supplement is in any way beneficial? What are the additives/function?

 

30 years ago I could have gone all technical on your a$$ , but the brain cells aren’t what they use to be. Has something to do with Van der Waal forces and Navier-Stokes and Reynold’s equations dealing with shear forces. l witnessed a demonstration with MOA (I suspect mostly molybdenum) added to the oil, the engine run for a period of time and then drained while still running. The engine continued to run for several minutes. The control engine without MOA seized up within seconds. Mind you, neither engine was under load, but the difference was still impressive.

 

I was hoping you would. I am not convinced by infomercial demonstration with draining oil - you could do the same with thicker or colder oil. I could be convinced by shear, film strength and so on tests against control at various temperatures - the methodology to test oils is well-established. I also don't know why you would want more molybdenum in your oil (honest question).

Here is how I would go about rigging "drain the oil test". Use single viscosity oil like SAE30 and add 2-stroke oil to fuel so there is some lubrication. Use thin synesthetic oil 0w20 in other engine with regular fuel. Drain both at the same time, and warm or cold 0w20 engine will die first. Without doing full analysis on both oil and fuel it would be impossible to detect tampering. This would work even without modifications to the engine to retain partial oil pressure when the oil pan is drained and/or hardening crankshaft bearings to last longer without oil pressure, which I could easily do and make it hard to detect without tear-down and material testing (e.g. Teflon coated bearings).

I have drained oil on a running beater engine and disassembled to see mode of failure before. Typically you have crank bearings fusing, but this doesn't always 100% happen to be what kills the engine. Also, some engines retain oil for longer time than others after oil pump sucks in air due to internal oil drain passages and the way oil pan set up (e.g. baffles). Last but not least, even ceased no-oil engine will be greasy inside when you dissemble it.

To have honest back to back comparison you need to take 2 crate engines, run both. Shut down, put the additive into both, run both to warm and shut down. Drain both, but do flush with cleaners on one of them. Then fill both with OEM oil, start and open oil pan drain right after starting. If that results in a different time-to-destruction, then maybe there is something to this additive.

 

Your proposed methodology seems sound. I just can't remember the protocol they employed when I witnessed the demonstration at their labs in Kansas back in the late '80s.

 

Maybe, but they use PEA invented by Chevron.

 

As you can imagine, at the time, they were pretty tightlipped about what was going into their formulation.

 

Personally, and this is just an opinion, MOA only made sense with conventional higher viscosity oils. 80s was a long time ago, modern synthetic oil is categorically different (and better) than what we had back then. There is no reason to believe that MOA would make any difference with a modern oil. More so, some people suggest it doesn't mix well with fully synthetic oils.

Anecdote - I recently had a displeasure of changing oil outside, at below freezing for a negligent relative that was running a risk of voiding engine warranty. That car had some junk dyno oil that quick oil change place put in (yuk, I know) that I think roughly correspond to 80s state of the art. I changed it with a synthetic (Penzoil Plat) that was on big sale at the time. Having my hands in both oils, I can readily and easily tell the huge difference between the two. One didn't want to flow well, was getting splashed all over place by wind indicating weak film strength. Penzoil flowed as if it was at operating temp, maintained pour and so on. Day and night.

Now are the good old days of engine oil. It never been better. I live in a cold, cold Canada and it is as if hard winter starts don't happen anymore - oil is just that good.

 

The only modern enemy is soot-loading, volatility and deposits. Oil affects your fuel injectors now!
Frankly one has to completely deconstruct the years of brainwashing on friction related wear. Not easy.

The soot-loading is such a recent phenomenon that it has teams of scientists around the world still studying it.
We are in completely uncharted territory.

 

I totally agree with you. The WWII-era was the height of internal combustion engine knowledge. They changed the oil much more frequently than we do, because they weren't inundated with industry propaganda and dealer oil change schedules aimed at wearing out cars as quickly as possible. It costs half a tank of gas to change the oil and with a Mity pump takes less time than a gas pitstop. I buy oil in 5 gallon jugs and shoot for <2000 mile changes. The filter can stay for 10,000 mile odometer turns since it has nothing to do. But I usually change it too.

 

Theoretically you can keep the filter in there for a year or more. Its pretty ineffective, other than to catch metal particles.

But one caution if you have the V8 like mine. The filter housing holds a ton of oil. Old oil sours new oil expeditiously. Like adding starter yeast.

I pour a quart of fresh oil through the filter housing (it can be cheap oil) and suck it up through the tube, it helps get the quart of old oil that remains between the filter and oil pan.

 

Good tip

 

Are you sure about that?
Coz on both my XFR and F-Type the filter canister/housing, once removed from the car, holds bugger all oil.
Well that has been my experience across many oil and filter changes, around 10 now I think.
It sits "upside down" on top of the engine so once you turn the engine off almost all of the oil in the filter and housing drains down and out.
Yes, there is a bit of oil left in the housing that the canister screws into, is that what you are talking about?
It's not a helluva lot and I use an old rag to mop up nearly all of it.

 

In fact, the shop manual says to let the oil drain out of the filter housing for 10 minutes (so as not to make a mess). Yeah, there is only a couple ounces in the filter housing upon removal.

That said, my other car, mid-engined with an oil cooler, only allows ~6 of 8 quarts to be (easily) drained at an oil change. No long term issues (and, it has 96K miles on it now).

 

Yep, when I do an oil & filter change I "crack" the filter and give it a couple of turns before I remove the sump plug (or start top extraction with a vacuum pump) but I don't remove it completely until I have finished dumping the old oil.
This is just to break the vacuum seal and allow the old oil to drain or pump a bit faster.

 

I did the same originally.

Do this trick and you will see.
Vacuum out every last drop you can get from the drain tube.
Now add oil from the oil filter housing, few ounces at a time, washing down the filter housing area as it were.
Each time you add oil, vacuum, till you see clean oil. Shocking how much old oil before you see new.

In this whole process you will start to see the wells of oil in the oil filter housing are actually quite deep, even though they only appear as a dot after you wipe with rag.