Engine Additives, BG Products MOA & CF5
#41
12-17-2019, 02:50 PM
Veteran Member
#42
12-17-2019, 02:50 PM
I have to deconstruct a lot here. You are totally worth it, you have made the same 3 choices of vehicles. For you empirical data.
Oil will oxidize in its sealed container just sitting on a shelf. I have checked with the manufacturer of my favourite oil, its 2 years- (I buy it on sale).
But you need proof now. "This oxidation process has the potential to begin almost spontaneously for even oil sitting dormant in a storage container. However, the rate of additive depletion and base oil oxidation generally correlates to the intensity of pro-oxidants existing within the oil."
From Machinery Lubrication https://www.machinerylubrication.com...idation-stages
So the premise that oil needs excessive heat is dangerously misleading due to being partially true.
From an oil analysis tutorial "Oxidation. This is a process that is very dependent on temperature, contamination and the availability of oxygen. It is aggravated when the lubricant is contaminated with raw fuel (e.g. containing unstable olefinic components). Furthermore, the catalytic activity of wear metals, such as copper and iron, can accelerate oxidation." https://www.cimac.com/cms/upload/Pub...ndation_30.pdf
Now for the eyeopener. "it takes less than 5 percent oxidized oil mixed with new oil to reduce the oxidation stability of the new oil by more than 90 percent"
They use a better example than I did of starter yeast "You might think of these reactive chemicals as an infection. It’s like sending nine healthy people into a room with a person ailing from a contagious disease. The good health of the nine doesn’t cure the disease of the one. On the contrary, you end up with 10 very sick people. Any time a lubricant is oxidized (e.g., a viscosity increase, dark opaque color, elevated acid number, pungent odor, etc.), a complete system flush is required to purge the infection."
The following is a very good read, on multiple levels including double oil change. https://www.machinerylubrication.com...me-oil-changes
Oil will oxidize in its sealed container just sitting on a shelf. I have checked with the manufacturer of my favourite oil, its 2 years- (I buy it on sale).
But you need proof now. "This oxidation process has the potential to begin almost spontaneously for even oil sitting dormant in a storage container. However, the rate of additive depletion and base oil oxidation generally correlates to the intensity of pro-oxidants existing within the oil."
From Machinery Lubrication https://www.machinerylubrication.com...idation-stages
So the premise that oil needs excessive heat is dangerously misleading due to being partially true.
From an oil analysis tutorial "Oxidation. This is a process that is very dependent on temperature, contamination and the availability of oxygen. It is aggravated when the lubricant is contaminated with raw fuel (e.g. containing unstable olefinic components). Furthermore, the catalytic activity of wear metals, such as copper and iron, can accelerate oxidation." https://www.cimac.com/cms/upload/Pub...ndation_30.pdf
Now for the eyeopener. "it takes less than 5 percent oxidized oil mixed with new oil to reduce the oxidation stability of the new oil by more than 90 percent"
They use a better example than I did of starter yeast "You might think of these reactive chemicals as an infection. It’s like sending nine healthy people into a room with a person ailing from a contagious disease. The good health of the nine doesn’t cure the disease of the one. On the contrary, you end up with 10 very sick people. Any time a lubricant is oxidized (e.g., a viscosity increase, dark opaque color, elevated acid number, pungent odor, etc.), a complete system flush is required to purge the infection."
The following is a very good read, on multiple levels including double oil change. https://www.machinerylubrication.com...me-oil-changes
Related but unrelated, check out this DIYer's ZF8HP700 (our model) oil change. Skip to 4:00 minutes and be amazed at how much metal is caught by the magnets, not the filter.
To expand-on the OP's question, does anyone run oil filter or pan magnets in addition to additives or change frequency concerns?
#43
12-17-2019, 03:06 PM
Veteran Member
Ignore him, he thinks a shop rag is fine filtration. He could have used a coffee filter and saved his shop rag for coffee.
There is a lot of metal in transmissions, its normal, thus the magnets. In some instances these metal particles help give traction to worn clutches.
My FJ40 has magnets in all the drain plugs.
Synthetic oxidizes less than organic.
There is a lot of metal in transmissions, its normal, thus the magnets. In some instances these metal particles help give traction to worn clutches.
My FJ40 has magnets in all the drain plugs.
Synthetic oxidizes less than organic.
Last edited by Queen and Country; 12-17-2019 at 03:11 PM.
#44
12-17-2019, 06:47 PM
Ignore him, he thinks a shop rag is fine filtration. He could have used a coffee filter and saved his shop rag for coffee.
There is a lot of metal in transmissions, its normal, thus the magnets. In some instances these metal particles help give traction to worn clutches.
My FJ40 has magnets in all the drain plugs.
Synthetic oxidizes less than organic.
There is a lot of metal in transmissions, its normal, thus the magnets. In some instances these metal particles help give traction to worn clutches.
My FJ40 has magnets in all the drain plugs.
Synthetic oxidizes less than organic.
#45
12-17-2019, 07:36 PM
A few things, but after that I'm going to pay less attention to this thread:
The full article on SVOC (Short Volume Oil Change) is addressing industrial equipment where an "oil change" may be 40% new oil with 60% of the used oil remaining. My estimate is that the remaining oil after a change is less than 2%, but may be 3.5%. For smaller capacity systems like my motorcycles it might be 6-7% depending on how patient I am. If I ever let the oil get to a horrible state, that might be a concern and I'd change again soon.
The yeast analogy and the infection analogy are both poor in that they relate living, reproducing organisms with relatively simple chemical processes. If oil oxidation was similarly "contagious" we'd see exponential oxidation, not limited by the biological factor of organisms dying in their own waste. The oil would reach a limit and then fall off a cliff. If that tipping point exists it exists far beyond the JLR recommendations.
I actually like the idea of hybrid fuel injection systems in that the upstream injectors can help clean the intake valves, but also can supplement fueling in areas where direct injection has deficiencies (it does have deficiencies, along with its benefits).
If nano-particles of carbon are going to damage my timing chain (or something similar) there would be an increase in iron in my oil analysis.
The full article on SVOC (Short Volume Oil Change) is addressing industrial equipment where an "oil change" may be 40% new oil with 60% of the used oil remaining. My estimate is that the remaining oil after a change is less than 2%, but may be 3.5%. For smaller capacity systems like my motorcycles it might be 6-7% depending on how patient I am. If I ever let the oil get to a horrible state, that might be a concern and I'd change again soon.
The yeast analogy and the infection analogy are both poor in that they relate living, reproducing organisms with relatively simple chemical processes. If oil oxidation was similarly "contagious" we'd see exponential oxidation, not limited by the biological factor of organisms dying in their own waste. The oil would reach a limit and then fall off a cliff. If that tipping point exists it exists far beyond the JLR recommendations.
I actually like the idea of hybrid fuel injection systems in that the upstream injectors can help clean the intake valves, but also can supplement fueling in areas where direct injection has deficiencies (it does have deficiencies, along with its benefits).
If nano-particles of carbon are going to damage my timing chain (or something similar) there would be an increase in iron in my oil analysis.
#46
12-17-2019, 09:01 PM
Veteran Member
Jaguar has a patent on sealing the oil inside the oil actuated vvt after shutdown.
The oil evacuation tube does not and cannot possibly get 97% of the oil out.
You cannot siphon the oil when its completely drained to the pan after sitting few hours, as oil will not flow freely.
All you have to do is look up the initial oil fill capacity and the refill amount, you will find over a quart discrepancy.
#47
12-17-2019, 09:57 PM
Definitely. Pumping results in a little over 5 qts if the at mid-level virtual dipstick line. But that raises the question of draining vs pumping. Pumping is quick and easy and won't strip the drain plug, so I would rather do a double change than go through the bottom.
#48
12-17-2019, 11:57 PM
Veteran Member
Hope this is helpful, we had a head-start with the XK because we were the guinea pigs for the Ftype.
On page 683 of the 150 workshop manual (V8 SC)
Initial fill: 8.90 Litres
Service fill with filter change: 7.25 Litres
I'm assuming that the difference is the not-drainable volume of oil.
So, per oil change, 1.65 Litres or 18.5% of the old oil.
I am perplexed by this myself, could someone else chime in.
The siphon tube is lower than the drain plug.
In most cars the drain plug is not at the lowest point.
On page 683 of the 150 workshop manual (V8 SC)
Initial fill: 8.90 Litres
Service fill with filter change: 7.25 Litres
I'm assuming that the difference is the not-drainable volume of oil.
So, per oil change, 1.65 Litres or 18.5% of the old oil.
I am perplexed by this myself, could someone else chime in.
The siphon tube is lower than the drain plug.
In most cars the drain plug is not at the lowest point.
Last edited by Queen and Country; 12-18-2019 at 12:00 AM.
#49
12-18-2019, 12:14 AM
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Hope this is helpful, we had a head-start with the XK because we were the guinea pigs for the Ftype.
On page 683 of the 150 workshop manual (V8 SC)
Initial fill: 8.90 Litres
Service fill with filter change: 7.25 Litres
I'm assuming that the difference is the not-drainable volume of oil.
So, per oil change, 1.65 Litres or 18.5% of the old oil.
The siphon tube is lower than the drain plug.
In most cars the drain plug is not at the lowest point.
On page 683 of the 150 workshop manual (V8 SC)
Initial fill: 8.90 Litres
Service fill with filter change: 7.25 Litres
I'm assuming that the difference is the not-drainable volume of oil.
So, per oil change, 1.65 Litres or 18.5% of the old oil.
The siphon tube is lower than the drain plug.
In most cars the drain plug is not at the lowest point.
There was a post here somewhere showing a pic of the bottom of the siphon tube in relation to the oil/sump pan, and another post showing the inside of the oil/sump pan, and using my high precision Mark 1 eyeball measuring device I figured that the bottom of the siphon tube and the bottom lip of the sump plug hole (it's on the side of the sump not underneath) were on pretty much the exact same level, some 2 or 3 mm from the bottom.
So yes the drain plug on the AJ133 and AJ126 is not at the lowest point but I reckon it makes SFA difference which method you use to drain the old oil as to how much of the old oil is left behind in the bottom of the sump pan.
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Queen and Country (12-18-2019)
#50
12-18-2019, 04:44 AM
I pump it dry warm, add 5 qts, bring it to temp and its one click, maybe two, below the center fill line. Add a few oz and done. Pumping exchanges 5.1L on the dot. That is confirmed on the Mity pump reservoir tick mark, which oddly has a 5.1L line.
Last edited by RacerX; 12-18-2019 at 04:54 AM.
#51
12-18-2019, 06:37 AM
I went back and reconstructed, here's the capacity answer for the 2014 V8 S.
I vacuumed out 5.35 qts, still sitting in my Mity pump. I added 300 ml Liquid Moly MOS and 5 quarts. Brought the car to temp, added 14 oz. Royal Purple has a translucent bottle level so that is exact. That put the electronic dipstick exactly in the middle, so it takes 6.12 quarts from pumped empty to the middle of "Ok."
I just brought the car to temp and added a little at a time and it took exactly 1 qt to get to the "Max" fill line. So the digital gauge on a 2014 V8 takes exactly 64 oz, or 8 oz per tick, to go from the lowest reading to the highest.
Stupid me, I assumed the digial gauge was calibrated like every other dip stick in the history of cars and would show about a quart low at the low level line.
So if you run your F-Type right in the middle of the "Ok" range, you are running a quart low on oil. This also explains why dealers consistently overfill the car by adding the specified 7.5L.
The V8 takes exactly 7.12 quarts, or 6.74L from fully vacuumed to the top Max fill line.
I vacuumed out 5.35 qts, still sitting in my Mity pump. I added 300 ml Liquid Moly MOS and 5 quarts. Brought the car to temp, added 14 oz. Royal Purple has a translucent bottle level so that is exact. That put the electronic dipstick exactly in the middle, so it takes 6.12 quarts from pumped empty to the middle of "Ok."
I just brought the car to temp and added a little at a time and it took exactly 1 qt to get to the "Max" fill line. So the digital gauge on a 2014 V8 takes exactly 64 oz, or 8 oz per tick, to go from the lowest reading to the highest.
Stupid me, I assumed the digial gauge was calibrated like every other dip stick in the history of cars and would show about a quart low at the low level line.
So if you run your F-Type right in the middle of the "Ok" range, you are running a quart low on oil. This also explains why dealers consistently overfill the car by adding the specified 7.5L.
The V8 takes exactly 7.12 quarts, or 6.74L from fully vacuumed to the top Max fill line.
Last edited by RacerX; 12-18-2019 at 06:47 AM.
#52
12-18-2019, 08:02 AM
Veteran Member
Are you saying that the dipstick 'normal range' display is ~TWO QUARTS (or Liters?)I was happy and serene when our indicator never dropped below the midway line of the display. NOW I won't sleep at night.
I guess I'll need to measure the oil drained from the sump on the next change.
Perhaps when we change oil on BRITDRIVER's V8S in a few months, I'll see if there is any significant difference between the suction method and draining. I'm sure that if I show him this Topic he will want to do a double oil change...
#53
12-18-2019, 09:52 AM
Are you saying that the dipstick 'normal range' display is ~TWO QUARTS (or Liters?)I was happy and serene when our indicator never dropped below the midway line of the display. NOW I won't sleep at night.
I guess I'll need to measure the oil drained from the sump on the next change.
Perhaps when we change oil on BRITDRIVER's V8S in a few months, I'll see if there is any significant difference between the suction method and draining. I'm sure that if I show him this Topic he will want to do a double oil change...
IM(cynical)O, this is just another way improved technology helps wear the engine out just a little bit faster.
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Carbuff2 (12-18-2019)
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