Hi all.

I have a 2019 F-Type Convertible R-Dynamic P380 6-speed with 25k miles. The clutch slips when upshifting into 4th, 5th or 6th gear at highway speeds under strong acceleration. Vehicle speed stays constant while revs quickly jump 3000 rpm. I have no issues with low-speed gear changes and cannot get any slippage going into 2nd or 3rd. The Jaguar dealer says more tests are needed to be sure, but it is looking like a new clutch, etc. is needed at a cost of $5200. Not covered by warranty, of course.

I'm well aware of the early 2016 production 6-speeds that failed early and often until a more robust clutch became available. And I understand that clutches on later models can fail prematurely, at least compared to those on other non-Jaguar models I'm familiar with.

Has anyone had similar symptoms or experiences? Was clutch replacement the solution, or was there another fix? Are there aftermarket clutch kits available that perform better and last longer than genuine Jaguar parts? Or are Jaguar parts the only real option?

Any input would be appreciated!

Jeff

 

No idea about what a good writer can get done on the later models, but I can assure you that a clutch CAN be replaced under warranty...I had two of them done on my '16. One was around 1200 miles and the other just prior to 60K expiration.

 

I appreciate your quick response and previous posts on this issue. I do plan to take another run at the warranty issue through my local dealer and will likely reach out to a couple more dealers in the region to see if they will be more assertive on pushing for warranty coverage.

 

Warranty was available on the 2016 because there was a known issue with the first generation clutches. It wasn't a recall but there was a bulletin on it. I had complained before the bulletin came out so didn't come across as someone just trying to get a new clutch. Not that I would have anyway, but my service writer didn't have to explain that to the service manager. That was in 2017 at 17,000 miles, and I've got 28,000 miles on the replacement. I'm not sure if I have a Gen3 or Gen 4 clutch. As I recall the Gen2 was blamed for differential damage and led to the Gen3. I expect the Gen4 is not significantly different than Gen3

I doubt that a 2019 would be covered under that bulletin and as the car is several years old it will likely be denied warranty as a "wear item." Nevertheless, I wish you luck.

 

I bought my 2017 in Oct of 2020 from a high end import car dealer near Chicago. I knew that name because I grew up in the city. On the disclosure sheet it was noted that they replaced the clutch. Being a life long Pedal Pusher, I though it was odd that a 25,000 mile vehicle would have to have its clutch replaced so soon. I had a 98 civic with 270,000 miles on its OE clutch. There is a long history of clutch threads here... look under "clutch satisfaction."

I did find the pages; https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...-158861/page4/


It took me several nights to read through all the posts. I did have the presence of mind to ask for the repair order and purchase order for the clutch. The dealer dismissed it as an incompetent previous owner, but did provide a warranty on the car and on the work. The part number for what I believe to be the 4th gen clutch is T2R27466.

AFAIK, there has not been a standard among reports here on all dealers replacing clutches under warranty. It appears that some considered it a warranty item and some a "consumable", subject to 'wear and tear'. I have put almost 10K miles on the car since purchase and clutch is still going strong (no God, I am NOT bragging).

Hope this helps.

 

I'm on my 3rd 6MT but only my 2016 required the clutch to be replaced. It was a painful process to convince them to replace it -- and I had to escalate the issue up to the VP of Operations at Coventry. They did, eventually, replace it under warranty. I haven't had issues with the clutch on the 2 x 2018MY 6MTs and I haven't heard others (post 2017.5MY) with clutch issues. I doubt that they will fully cover your replacement under warranty -- but you should escalate to Jaguar customer service. They do have a goodwill policy where they may cover a portion of the repair. If they reject you for full coverage, you may want to try getting part of it paid for by JLRNA.

 

Thank you everyone for taking the time to comment. It's been an education! I've been preoccupied the past several months with work, travel and Covid, so have not progressed too far with tackling this issue. Strangely enough, I've driven 1000+ miles since my initial July post and my clutch has slipped just once. Perhaps I've adjusted my driving habits on the highway to avoid the "spot" where I'm getting slippage?

In any case, my potential warranty coverage ends next June. Pacific Northwest fall/winter rain is coming so the car will mostly stay in the garage until next spring. The consistent message I've gotten from three dealers is that I will need to spend more $ on diagnostics before they'll be "comfortable" tearing everything apart. If they proceed further and determine this is a "wear item" then warranty coverage is unlikely. My local dealer confirmed that I might need to escalate, as suggested in an earlier post, to see if I can get partial coverage. My local non-JLR shop that I've relied on for 25 years suggests they could replace the clutch for up to $1000 less than Jaguar, so I could go that route on the assumption I would need to spend a lot of time and effort working through the Jaguar system to possibly get their price reduced. Or, I can continue living with the car with the hope that the clutch slips infrequently as was the case for the past 1,000 miles. Guess I'll think about it this fall/winter and then assess the situation next spring before the warranty runs out. I think it's a matter of time before the work will need to be done. However, if I'm driving 2,000-3,000 miles per years, then this time horizon could be a long one...

 

It is your car and your decision, but bad news never gets any better (or cheaper) and problems don't fix themselves or go away. Easy for me to spend your money, but I really do think you should get this taken care of. Driving with a failing clutch may create a hazardous driving situation for you and perhaps others on the road. The 4th G clutch is not an expensive part, and from what I've read (Clutch Satisfaction thread), not difficult to do.

 

Performance Flywheel and Clutch Kit for Manual F-Types:

I want your feedback before I invest in the development of a new Flywheel / Clutch solution for our F-Types.

Back Story:
I have a 2017 F-Type Coupe with 6-spd (with 2nd/3rd generation clutch) and less than 25kmiles, and it has shown some clutch slipping on high torque shifts. I have purchased a $1200 set of new OEM parts from a parts outlet in the UK in preparation for replacement, but I just can’t bring myself to install them. The failure prone dual mass flywheel results in really long shift delays and the 4th generation self-adjusting SACHS XTend clutch seems to be of good quality, but I don’t know how it will play out.
See attached pictures of the new OEM parts.

So, I am planning on developing a new Flywheel/Clutch/Release Bearing Kit for the F-Type.

This new kit will be focused on the enthusiast who wants to experience a bit more of their supercharged V6 engine on weekend tours, or track days. The intention is to develop a kit that fits between OEM and Race… a kit that can handle elevated levels of torque from “tuned” engines, and a kit that will give faster shift response from a lower mass flywheel.

The target kit will probably not be for:

• cost conscience F-Type owners interested in having the dealer cover warrantee repairs with OEM parts
• extreme owners who modify their F-Types with radical parts at the detriment of practical concerns

Rather, this kit will probably be designed for:

• performance oriented drivers who have tuned their F-Types to enhance their experience

The kit will be centered on a new single mass flywheel with a target mass reduction of 30-40%. The kit will leverage high quality clutch from the best developers in the world, who have provided solutions for Porsche and Audi models. The clutch will be based on a readily available part number from a major European clutch manufacture. The clutch will be compatible with the single mass flywheel and provide torque engagement springs, and chatter suppression. The kit will also include a new release bearing that will match the engagement characteristics of the pressure plate over the full range of clutch wear.

The intention is to make the kit compatible with the Jaguar engine and manual transmission, so no modifications necessary. The owner can always go back to stock parts.

The kit is being designed to have the following characteristics and features:

• OEM Jaguar flex plate (from an automatic) for seamless starter and timing integration
• Simplified single mass flywheel with reduced rotational inertia for faster shifts
• New pilot bearing based upon ball bearings for longer life and reduced failure modes
• New friction disk with high bronze and iron content for higher torque ratings
• New friction disk with center springs for smoother engagement and chatter reduction
• New pressure plate with better torque ratings
• Longer throw release bearing which is compatible with the pressure plate for long life

What do you all think?

Pictures of OEM parts below (I have all of the part numbers and details)






@818 @AllBlackFtype @Atomic @bb_sam @Buckingham @Chawumba @dcompain @DJS @El Gato @Foosh @Ftyperegistry @Govinator @jaguny @jboers @lizzardo @Luc Lapierre @unccoda5 @mbelanger @Mbourne @Michael211 @mshedden @ORG @Orkney @OzXFR @rbsj @scm @Shaaguar @SinF @slipstream @Stwsam @tony2x @Uncle Fishbits @Unhingd @Valerie Stabenow @whatisthatsound @WhiteTardis

 

You may be trying to blaze a new trail to a known destination. Lance (Unhingd) had a lightweight flywheel made along with a new pressure plate and presumably updated friction disc as well by SPEC. I don't know of anyone else that has made that effort but suggest you check with him so that you're not reinventing the (fly)wheel.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure it was SPEC, but am not certain. Last I heard it was still sitting on a shelf in his garage.

 

Yes, still sitting on shelf, but another member installed one with poor results. First of all, the Spec flywheel was not perceptively lighter than the OEM dual mass and the engagement from a full stop was full of jerk and chatter. It could well be that the idiosyncrasies of the AJ126 engine truly require a dual mass clutch.
That said, I am still quite satisfied with 30k miles on the 4th gen clutch. When a new clutch is needed, I am tempted to pair the Spec clutch with the OEM flywheel.

 

Thanks for your reply Steve, and for jumping in Lance.
Below are some pictures of the Spec set up (taken by Lance), and the order page from the Spec website.

I would like to achieve a lower rotational inertia, and avoid jerk and chatter with the proposed solution.
I started a conversation with a company which develops flywheel/clutch solutions for both street and race cars.
They have a lot of experience with the flywheel surface mating to various clutch types including specifying the friction disc material.

I don't think the AJ126/133 engine family has anything special about it that requires a dual mass flywheel. It is a V-6 with 90* bank and conventional fire order... perhaps the supercharger aspects?
I do think that Jaguar was going for a smooth ride with high inertia to avoid stalling at take-off... in order to support drivers with limited stick-shift experiences.

Either way, I will be the gunnie pig for the first article based on the single mass flywheel and I will be comparing it against my 2nd/3rd gen clutch set up. This will probably take place in the new year.

 

That would have been my guess, as well. I truly hope your endeavor is successful. A lower inertia clutch/flywheel combo would take the shifting experience to a whole new level.

 

Thanks @Unhingd Lance,
...and I am enjoying your "short shifter" which is a nice enhancement over stock.

 

Hey there @jboers, I live NE of Seattle and have recently had the dual mass flywheel on my 2017 coupe replaced under warranty, (as well as the clutch, at my expense). I then obtained some additional funding from Jaguar Customer Relations Center on appeal to offset some of the clutch parts cost after documenting the work, symptoms and several Jaguar CRC cases posted in this forum. I also appreciate the great assists and notes from @mbohlinger @Valerie Stabenow, @Unhingd and others who shared and documented their experiences here. The crew at Jaguar of Seattle service in Lynnwood have been excellent to work with, and Jaguar CRC were supportive, though it took a lot of time, communication and patience from everyone to get to the right outcomes. Our cars in this geo are so rare that it is a challenge for the local shop mechanics as they have very little opportunity to compare how cars are performing and what's "normal".

I had some very specific vibration issues which (thankfully) we were finally able to reproduce with the Jag of Seattle shop foreman when he was performing a test drive with me. You can read my (verbose) post on the symptoms below which were quite different from your experience, but agree with others here who caution not to let it go uncorrected in order to ensure safety and, if possible, leverage warranty assistance. I'll send you a private message to see if I can assist with any introductions.

I still experience a slight vibration consistent with engine RPM under all loads and gears between 1900-2200 RPM, and occasionally get a light shudder (all of these experienced most at the shift lever) when decelerating below 3000 RPM, but it's rare enough that I can live with it as a quirk. I enjoy the car so much the other 98% of the driving time (at 11,400 miles it's all pleasure driving on back roads and club events), I'll hope it never gets worse and deal with it if/when it does.2017 type S Manual Trans engine vibration when decelerating @ specific RPM ranges - Jaguar Forums - Jaguar Enthusiasts Forum

 

Here's a direct quote from one of our members reviewing the Spec Clutch performance:
"A little while back the clutch on my 6MT was slipping, so I ordered a stage 4 Spec clutch and flywheel in hopes it would grab better. I've had it in the car for about 2K miles now and I know you (Unhingd) have a spec clutch sitting on the shelf as well, so I thought you might want to hear how things worked out for me.

The Good:
Clutch grabs hard at any RPMs, any speed, no issues.

The Bad:
A whole lot of Clutch chatter on idle
Even with a perfect launch, there is a hard impact when the clutch engages that shakes the car a bit.

The Deal Breaker:
Anything less than a perfect launch, and the clutch will "bounce" and completely rock the car back and forth, making the rear diff bounce like a ping-pong ball.
Getting a perfect launch is amazingly hard, and even after months of trying I can only get it right about 40% of the time because it's so finicky.
Creeping forward or backward, such as when parking, is straight impossible and will cause the car to shudder like you're breaking it.

Long story short, maybe I should have expected this from a racing spec diff, but it's completely unusable as a daily driver option, and I fear the stress that it's putting on the other components of my car. I'm taking the loss, and replacing it ASAP with a stock Gen 4 Jag clutch.

I don't know if this will be any help to you, but if you're wondering whether or not to install your spec clutch, I thought this might help in the decision-making process."

 

@scotter @Unhingd Thanks for sharing these experiences with the OEM and SPEC flywheel/clutch parts.
1) The original Jaguar shudder and vibration issues do seem to be from the Dual Mass Flywheel springs, as quoted by your Jaguar mechanic.
These radially arranged torsion springs (sandwiched between the two flywheels) are installed with liberal amounts of grease to prevent wear and sticking.
I suppose a poor application of grease on the springs could lead to sticking, pre-mature wear and failure.
Here is an instructive video on the radially mounted torsion:
2) the SPEC clutch kit (with single mass flywheel), which grabs aggressively could be from the use of a "solid" friction disk, or a "sprung" friction disk with overly stiff isolations springs.
the friction disk and pressure plate need to be sized and matched to the torque capability of the engine, otherwise an overly "stiff" response is experienced.
A video that shows the clutch dampener spring function:
I am working with a company that specializes in developing single mass flywheel solutions for Porsche/Audi/VW and BMW.
They are sensitive to the "binding torque" rating of the friction disk isolation springs and will endeavor to get it right based on their P996-987 kits.
I will be the gunnie pig for the first draft of this proposed Single Mass Flywheel & Clutch Kit and will ensure proper behavior before signing off on the design.

One variable is that my 2017 F-Type is the base model (340 hp) and may not represent the response of tuned F-Type cars with +20% more torque. (>400 ft-lbs).
So I may opt for a tune myself or ask others here willing to join the process to develop an enthusiast's solution.

 

Update: Nov 27 2022
I have engaged Aasco to design and sell a Jaguar F-Type single mass flywheel and clutch kit.
Aasco Motorsports HomePage
They have assessed the Jaguar OEM (Sachs) dual mass flywheel and Xtend clutch components that I provided.
So far we have decided to use a flex plate from the automatic equipped F-Type to get the correct starter ring gear and timing wheel.
The flywheel will be machined from aluminum, and have replaceable steel friction surfaces.
Count on a healthy weight reduction from stock, and a lower rotational inertia.
The clutch will probably be from a Porsche 996-987 application and will be a simple clutch, NOT an auto adjusting clutch.
The friction disk will feature isolator springs which saturate at about 400 ft-lbs of torque to give good engagement properties.
The T/O release bearing will be the stock Jaguar part number, and the bolts for flywheel and pressure plate will also be stock Jaguar.
Initial price estimates point to less than $2500 for the whole kit.
No special clutch installation tools will be needed. (besides a 23 spline alignment tool)
No modifications to the Jaguar are required, car can be returned to OEM parts if desired.

best,
Herman

 

That's very intriguing. Thank you for undergoing this journey and keeping us updated.

 

Update: Dec 16, 2022

The folks at Aasco Motorsports are now done with the design phase and will soon fabricate the first parts for the Jaguar F-Type single mass flywheel kit.
The first articles will be completed about mid January. Here are some details.

A used flex plate from an automatic F-Type was procured (easily available on eBay motors) and it was integrated into the design by having the center hub section removed.
This was done to give the aluminum single mass flywheel a direct mate to the crank hub and alignment pin. It is important for the flywheel to be hub-centric on the crank, more so than for the starter gear or tone wheel.
The single mass flywheel will be machined from a 12" OD aluminum disk that is 2.8" think. This thickness is not commonly stocked at Aasco Motorsports, so they are waiting on delivery of the raw material.
The replaceable steel friction surfaces on the aluminum flywheel will be treated with Dupont Melonite, same as found on most gun barrels. This is a standard practice for Aasco Motorsports flywheels.
Weight estimates will be coming soon.
The final clutch choice is still in flux as there are two viable 9.5" (240mm) OD /. 23 spline clutches available... a) an older Audi part number, or b) a newer Porsche part number.
The Porsche friction disk is known to engage 425 ft-lbs of torque which is plenty for a standard 380 hp / 340 ft-lbs V6 S model.
Material prices have been estimated, and the first article will be made using non-optimal techniques (to cut the center hub out of the flex plate) ... but tooling may be investigated for subsequent orders.

I included a picture of the Automatic Flex Plate mods below.

best,
Herman