In another thread plmmd reported the results of "counting cars" during a recent drive: 20 911s, 4 C7s and only 2 F-Types. I take his point to be that we have a rare gem and should rejoice in that fact. StealthPilot's reply: "Interesting, but rarity is not necessarily a positive. [...] I would feel much better about the lack of F-Types on the road if the waiting list for them were several months out, as opposed to lots of cars sitting on dealers' lots, which appears to be the case right now."

This raises a question that is sufficiently distinct from the OP's to merit a new thread. It's something that I've been wondering about for a while. Are the F-Type's sales figures cause for concern?

We all have our impressions, of course, or an anecdote to tell: "They're sitting on lots... Today I spotted two of them... Last week my cousin parked next to one." Personally, I've NEVER seen one in the wild—which proves nothing.

But does anyone have FIGURES to quantify the F-Type's degree of failure or success (if either of these words applies)? I mean: figures other than car counts on a trip. What were sales projected to be? What did they need to be? What have they been to date (a break-down by sub-model would be helpful)? Finally, what do these data mean? What can we conclude about the F-Type's prospects in 2017 and beyond and about JLR's investment in the marque?

 

I see quite a few of them around these parts, mostly coupes which seems odd considering I am in California. They aren't as ubiquitous as 911s but I don't think they ever thought they could sell as many as Porsche does.

I have an acquaintance at JLR in the UK and he says that the car is meeting their sales expectations but not exceeding. I think the real question about future investment in the marque hinges on the XE and not the F Type.

 

There's been other threads about sales/production numbers...from memory, it's something like 400/month. Porsche sells about 1000/month (911s). So in this regards I think it's been successful. Jaguar is no where near as big as Porsche.

 

Since my V8S was delivered in Nov 2013 JLR Aust have upped the price of the F Type significantly.

My V8S convertible base price was AUD$201,000 (mine added up to AUD$267,000).

The V8S model has been dropped in both convertible and coupe forms - making direct comparisons harder - but the 2wd V8S coupe (available for only 6 months or so before being dropped) was AUD$15,000 less than the 2wd V8R coupe.

Now we have the 2wd V8R convertible base price listing at AUD$245,000.

That's a huge jump - with AWD adding AUD$15,000 to that.

My car configured now (albeit it would be an R not an S) would be AUD$315,000!

I think that means they're selling in adequate numbers as far as JLR Aust are concerned!

Motor Magazine here lists the number of new cars sold on a calendar year basis and to May there were 52 F Types sold here since Jan 1st. There may have been a dip due to people holding off for the AWD and manual versions that launch here this month with deliveries starting next month.

It's my understanding there are about 450 F Types in Australia.

I'm pretty sure that makes them rarer than Lamborghinis - which I for one think is extremely cool!

Cheers,

Aus V8S
Sydney Australia

 

It's a bit late, but welcome to the forum Aus V8S, if you stop by our new member area ==>> New Member Area - Intro a MUST - Jaguar Forums - Jaguar Enthusiasts Forum and introduce yourself, we can give you a proper welcome.

Oh yes, the prices in Australia... why is it so?

Well if you check the current Driveaway Price Calculator https://jaguar.webqem.com/driveaway/...AUTO&state=NSW for NSW we see

F-Type R Convertible RWD
List Price $203,257.85 (incl 10% GST)
Dealer Delivery $3,500.00 (incl 10% GST)
Luxury Car Tax $43,072.16
Registration $1,230.04
Stamp Duty $11,595.00
Driveaway Price $262,655.05 (£126,874)before you start ticking option boxes...

If we check the UK pricing...

F-Type R Convertible RWD
List Price £71,141.67
VAT @ 20% £14,228.33
OTR Charges £1,440.00
On The Road Price £86,810.00, ($180'854) again without options...

Let's break that down a little...with 1 AUD = 0.48 GBP

AUS List price without GST = $184'779.76 (£88'694.33)
UK List price without VAT = $148'211.81 (£71,141.67)

So the basic price jump not counting the tax is £17'500 or $35'000

Hard to see where this $35'000 could go, since it's $2k for shipping on a RORO ship, there is no import duty, and so on. But still, that's the real "gouge", we can thank the government for the rest of the difference...

Getting back to your V8S, if you are keen there is a way to load the 404kW/680Nm F-Type R tune, so you can have the same power.

 

I don't think we have market penetration. There were only 7500 in the U.S. As I recall before the 16s arrived. It will become more popular as the car gets "seen". I get so many compliments you can tell they will be selling cars. When I started in porschedom they were relatively rare and it is unusual to see one in my morning metro ny commute.

 

Cambo... I wince every time I think about that $43,000 of completely unjustifiable Luxury Car Tax. It's supposedly to protect a local car industry... That we protected all the way into non-existence!

 

Hi Aus V8S,
I'm a member of an exotic car club here in Melbourne. There are 10 Lambo's in the club, 14 Ferraris, 5 Audi R8's, 5 Aston's, 4 Maserati's, 9 Porsches, 6 C63's, two Alfa 4C's and only ONE F Type R. I think that's cool too, and so do the members of my club (which is kind of nice!)
Cheers,
Oz

Frenchy... Haven't seen a single C7 here yet in my city of 6 million people. Does that mean the C7 is a total failure? Of course not. As you noted, "if those words apply". If numbers meant anything, Koenigseggs and Veyrons would be deemed to be total flops. To pursue this thread, we'd need a better definition of what "success" is first, and in a car forum, it's going to be almost impossible to even get agreement on that. Just my two cents worth...

 

"I don't think we have market penetration," opines plmmd. Sure, but "market penetration" is just jargon for market share (or increasing market share). And we all know that its market share is tiny. The F-Type is a rare beast—established.

What I was interested in when I started the thread was: FIGURES. In particular, sales against expectations. Can anyone quote industry observers on this question? JLR insiders?

Yup, Cambo, the price of the F-Type increased in Australia, but that says more about the huge luxury tax and little, if anything, about demand (which will surely suffer now because of the tax).

OzRisk, I realize that success can't always be measured in $. Take your example: the Veyron. Each one sold for maybe 25% of its production cost. Volkswagen had the cash to play with and dreamt up the Veyron as a technical exercise to see if a production car could do +400 mph. Whatever success you care assign to the Veyron is not economic—unless the supposed prestige boost and bragging rights translated to higher Passat sales (which no one at VW claimed).

I'm talking about ECONOMIC SUCCESS. Is the F-Type a success in the "bottom line" sense of the word success. If the F-Type does not sell well enough to justify its development and production, it will be a short-lived marque. That's what I wanted this thread to be about.

 

As others have said, hard to answer the question since "success" and "failure" has not been strictly defined. If you base it on pure sales data as I eluded to above, then yes, it has been a success. Compare Porsche 911 with F-Type:

Jaguar F-Type Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR
Porsche 911 Sales Figures - GOOD CAR BAD CAR

400 vs 800 in June 2015. That to me is a success. However, this does not factor into account: production cost, incentives, discounts, etc. For all we know Jaguar is giving away the F-Types with heavy discounts/incentives, which makes the 400 sales in June not so impressive.

 

Getting back to your V8S, if you are keen there is a way to load the 404kW/680Nm F-Type R tune, so you can have the same power.[/QUOTE]


It's interesting you say that - cos I've driven a friend's V8S that has 440kW and 713Nm. It's exhaust notes are fully preserved and the throttle-maps are cleaned up beautifully. He installed the thing himself (the rear sensor is hard to access and takes a determined effort) in 30 mins and it only cost him AUD$1,000 or so. The car is just insanely fast.

This is what he fitted http://m.racechip.com/chiptuning/jaguar/f-type/f-type/5-0-kompressor-364kw/index.php

Cheers

Aus V8S

 

I doubt development on the F-Type is all that high. The engine doesn't see many changes, and is used in everything Jaguar makes. Sure, we use a slightly different tune, but that tune hasn't changed either. I suspect Jaguar could sell a lot more (and still make a profit) if they dropped the price for the base coupe from $66k base down to around $50-55k. Each model above would need a corresponding drop. While it would certainly hurt the profit per car, I expect it be made up for in volume. The dealership local to me mentioned that the lot of extra F-Types they had wasn't a case of them over-ordering. They were assigned those cars without requesting them. I will say, apparently the base coupe isn't very popular. There aren't many ordered. This tells me that people who buy F-Types currently aren't doing so because it's the best deal out there (it very much isn't), but because they have the money and want a nice, high end, luxury sports car. It's positioned to compete with the Porsches, but with more features and a lower performance point. It wouldn't be hard to position at a lower market and compete with the Corvettes of the world, but while I expect that would result in ubiquity, who wants to compete with Corvettes when you can be more than a Corvette. I feel that if the F-Type were a failure, we would be seeing more sales, driving the prices down to try to build up numbers.

As it stands, we have rare and exciting cars. On Saturday night, as I left Sacramento to drive home, I stopped to get fuel. A brand new corvette pulled in after me. He didn't stop to get fuel. He stopped to admire and talk about my car. Not about his own. Not to compare. He kept steering the conversation back to the F-Type. A few minutes later, both of the clerks at the station came out to listen and join in. Another guy drove up in a 370z and started asking questions. Clearly, people are hugely interested in what we have. Jaguar's name is being spoken constantly. I think that relevance is enough to make Jaguar consider the F-Type a success.

 

The GM at my dealer has told me the exact opposite on numerous occasions. He says, he can't order as many base cars as he would like, and that they sell quickly, because they are perceived to be a better value.

 

From what I've read that does seem to be the case outside California for sure... people are having a hard time keeping the base cars on the lot. Perhaps in CA folks are cross shopping against the 911 and are primarily looking at the higher performing F-Types as a closer point of comparison, and aren't considering the base car. I know I fall into that latter category.

 

"Hard to answer the question since 'success' and 'failure' have not been strictly defined": so writes Shift.

OK, I'll try again. Let's say that a car is successful if it's profitable. "Success," for the purposes of this thread, is defined as profitability. (I know, I know: there are other kinds of success.)

The Corvette (C7), for example, is not only GM's "halo car," it's a profitable car as well. A highly profitable car, albeit in a niche market. A rough estimate might be an average of $8kUS profit per unit sold (some estimates go as high as 10k). Multiply that by, say, 25k units sold per year, and... well, you do the math. 200 million may not be enormous in the cosmic scheme of things (i.e. GM's corporate balance sheet), but it's significant. The profitability of the C7 is something that's easily researched and firmly established.

Now, what about the F-Type? Figures are not readily available, though I'm sure they're accessible somewhere, somehow. I was wondering—and this was the point of my thread—if someone in this forum could point us in the right direction. Someone who is familiar with JLR's financial profile.

 

I would say the definition of success should be more about the sustainability of the marque. In other words, what does Jaguar or Tata consider to be the purpose of the F-Type? If it is to make money on it's own and fiscally justify it's existence, then numbers sold and time on lot might be a tad frightening. However, if the main goal was to promote overall Jaguar brand awareness and inject spice into Jaguar's product-line, then I would say it has been a resounding success. Given the overall good magazine and TV reviews, plus the strong curb appeal, and the stated desire to introduce more Project 7 and SVR style specialties, my personal opinion is that the marque is here to stay for at least the next several years.

My personal recent experience ordering a car shows that dealers are not giving them away. I contacted 9 "local" dealers and simply asked for their best price on my specific build. Most offered 3-4% off the sticker. The one I choose was far and away the best at 7%, significantly better than my true local dealer. To me, this is not indicative of desperation to move cars.

I had an 01 Silverstone with an Arden package that I loved. However, I knew it's days were limited once the F-Type was introduced. It took me 3 years of waiting for the Coupe and hoping for an R Manual, but there is no other car out there within a reasonably close price range that I would consider. Just can't beat the sex appeal and raw hotness of an F-Type!

 

Hard to say if the F-Type is profitable, I doubt that there'll be any statements from JLR on the subject.

I'd suggest one benchmark to be sales of the F-Type vs. the X150 XK/XKR, it'd take a while to gather the numbers, but if it's true that 7500 F-Types have been sold in the US since launch, it would be more per year than the XK (I seem to recall it was something like 1300 per year sold in the US in recent years)

The other thing to consider is how successful the F-Type has been as a marketing tool, it's certainly generated a lot of attention, and brought many new customers to Jaguar, a lot of people who've bought F-Types are first time Jaguar owners. That's got to be considered a success.

EDIT

^^^^ while I was typing that post, Robgodius, thinking exactly the same thing.

 

Cambo and Robgodius, I get your point: The F-Type is Jag's "halo car," the purpose of which is to increase brand visibility, generate attention, inject some sex appeal into the line-up ("good to be bad"), etc., and not necessarily to generate profits.

I'll point out, however, that the Corvette, GM's halo car, the bottom line of which is relatively small in GM's overall picture, almost bit the dust in the 90s due to non-profitability. The F-Type, halo car though it is, looms much larger on JLR's balance sheet and would be nixed without qualms for SUSTAINED non-profitability. Hence my questions. Hence my concern. But it looks like our car's profitability or lack thereof, and therefore its prospects, will remain a corporate secret.

 

You can't really compare JLR to GM though, very different companies.

And as for profitability of a single Jag model, that's kind of moot when the Brand itself struggles to break even.

Under Ford's ownership from 1989 to 2008, Jaguar never turned a profit. Land Rover was profitable.

For example, prior to the Ford selloff, in 2007 Land Rover made a $1.2B profit and Jag made a $100M loss. In 2006 Jag lost $500M.

2008 was a very bad year, with both brands together making a $1.1B loss.

Now that the brands are combined as JLR, you don't see the numbers for Jag or Land Rover separately. So it's hard to say if Jag is still making the loss and being carried by Land Rover. Data from 2009 onwards here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar...Financial_data

I doubt you'll find any published information about the profit/loss split between brands.

But let's assume the Jaguar portion of JLR is still at a loss, or barely breaking even.

While it's true that JLR is a business, not a charity (they do need to make money), there is no way would the F-Type ever be axed because of profitability concerns, even if it bled money, it's the halo car, and without a direct replacement in the lineup, it's not going anywhere...

 

Cambo, since we are all heavily invested, both monetarily and emotionally in our F's, I really hope you are correct. For what it is worth, I think you are spot on as long as Jaguar does not lose gazillions or experience massive negative press.