You can quote this to the GM too, if he throws shade about ecu programming..

Magnuson Moss Warranty Act specifically forbids manufacturers from forcing consumers into using ONLY factory approved services...including ECU tuning!

"No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name . . ."

This is actual law in the USA.

But in your situation they missed the specific CPO inspection point for the ECU in the first place, therefore misrepresented the vehicle as 'Certified' when in fact it was not. The Dealer makes a bunch of money selling the 165 point inspection service that comes with a CPO, and clearly this did not happen with your car. (Makes you wonder if it got inspected at all, besides a casual look?)

Open and shut case...dealers fault.

 

This seems to get hashed over many times, on many car forums. Can anyone personally say that they were able to get warranty service, on any brand, on an engine or drivetrain component on a car that had a tune? I am not going to offer an opinion here, because it is just that and people seem free to offer opinions without facts to support them. I will say that over the past 10 years I have always heard that if you get a tune, you are at risk for engine and drivetrain problems that might occur. In the Corvette world, some of the more established tuners provide their own warranties.

Larry

 

here is a dealer reps perspective for you lsbrodsky ... almost ALL repairs are honored after tunes....unless the dealer can PROVE the tune is responsible for the damage. This is the law in the USA.


The F-Type is available with the same engine and drivetrain in 340HP , a 380HP, and a 400HP version, with the only differrence being the tune. Jaguar would have VERY indefensible position stating a 400HP third party tune exceeds the engineering limits of the car that they already market at 400HP with identical drivetrain and engine type, so they could not legally void the warranty in that case, for instance. (If you had the 340hp f-type and tuned it to emissions compliant 400HP, this is perfectly legal and would not void anything).


But in the case of Pixel's CPO covered F-Type the dealer FAILED to inspect his ECU as part of the "Certified Pre-owned" inspection service before selling pixel his car, the dealer missed the timestamp of a past tune entirely during inspection, and is now resisting warranty work on an o2 sensor due to this error? Sounds like a really shady used-car dealer to me!

Again, you have the right to tune your car within the marketed/established limits set by the manufacturer. In other words, if Jaguar chooses to 'Detune' an engine to lower the price point, you have the right to tune it back up to their higher factory specs of the more powerful version of the same engine with the same drivetrain without fear of voiding warranty, from a legal standpoint.

Dealer Service departments are terrified of chargebacks, which affect their paychecks. So they are paid to err in the direction of the dealership, and many service departments take this to the extreme at the expense of the consumer so the management can take home more money. Don't let them do this to you.

The fact that a car was tuned does not "Carte Blanche" void your warranty, that practice is illegal in the USA.

 

That's true for general maintenance, but does not cover modifications that can directly affect the performance and/or safety of the product. If you have an ECU tune that only acts as a governor to limit max rpm's to something below the red line, you'd be fine (and lonely).

 

There are many dealers that actually install after market parts and tunes. The Germans for example have several. APR, Renntech, Dinan, Weistec and others have fairly expansive franchised dealer support. Some dealers have 'performance parts directors' who specifically interface with customers looking for such mods. It can be a great profit center for them. My sense has always been it's the installation of the mods that is generally suspect, not the mods themselves.

 

Pixel bought his car used with a CPO warrany, relying upon the CPO inspection to give him assurance of a reliable car that will be covered under the extended warranty. Now the CPO warranty is being refused due to a tune by the past owner.

IMHO (I'm not a lawyer, but know a few too many...)

1) this warranty work refusal is illegal unless they can prove the tune broke the part, but more importantly....

2) the dealer who sold the car with the CPO warranty has mis-represented his goods and pixel has good legal standing to get all his money back if the warranty is not fully honored.

In Texas there is the Fair Trade act that would give me up to two years to return the car for a full refund with no mileage devaluation if this happened to me here. I had to do this with a Japanese car company and won a few years back. (It ended up later they issued a component recall). Consumer Protection rules!

 

Limit RPM's to below red line? I'd just tune right up to the same settings Jaguar already has established in the 400HP version of the same engine, easy-peasy.

This way they can't claim you've exceeded their engineering limits. Ever.

 

People act as if throwing out the "Magnusson Moss" phrase will send dealers and manufacturers running in fear. Here is a different viewpoint, its not as clear cut / slam dunk as some make out.

https://www.stage3motorsports.com/St...-Warranty.html

"Now, you may hear something or other about being protected by the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975, which you technically are, since the Act requires a burden of proof from the manufacturer or dealer that a particular aftermarket part, accessory, or tune led to an engine failure or other issue. That being said, Ford and dealerships have much more money and a much larger legal team than you, and a drawn-out court battle with a judge that may or may not understand some of the finer points of the aftermarket or tuning will more than likely cost you more than new motor and still leave you footing the bill for full crate engine or long block if something catastrophic did in fact occur. So, while you're technically "protected" to some extent, the real-world practical issues leave a lot to be desired. Still, if you put a tune in your vehicle, but have a problem with something that is totally unrelated to the tune or powertrain (i.e. your window regulator, door locks, A/C, power steering, etc.), then those repairs would be covered."

 

Based on what Cambo posted, seem like either:
1. Dealer who CPO'd it connected via SDD, and therefore Jag has a log showing the tune prior to the OP's purchase; or
2. If Jag doesn't have a record, then the dealer didn't connect via SDD, and the OP has a legitimate complaint against the dealer for not properly CPOing the car.

Here's an interesting Jag document, discussing unauthorized power upgrades. Presumably, only applies in the UK...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2augvfxycu...rades.pdf?dl=0

 

I'm guessing door number 2!

ek993, I agree fighting for your rights is not without pain. This is a good place to start.

https://www.consumeradvocates.org/fo...rs/automobiles

However in the case of the six cylinder mated to the 8-speed in the f-types and the xe's, Jag has simply de-tuned the engine as a marketing strategy for lower price points. The engine and tranny is fully EPA certified for 400HP in the USA, and higher elsewhere. They would be laughed out of the courtroom if they claimed their engine or tranny had been overtaxed and therefore broke due to a tune within their own established limits.

I think Jaguar is Unique in that I can think of no other car manufacturer that simply castrates their engines with a little code so they can charge you thousands more for the upgrade....

 

There's a virtually identical document posted in the other thread that covers N. Am market jags. I know of no OEM that covers aftermarket parts. Since Jag does not sell tunes, they are all therefore 'aftermarket' and not covered by Magnusson Moss.

 

I would be interested in how they determine No.4 on the CPO check list: "Is the vehicle free from any warranty restrictions".

And No.5 is relevant here as well.

 

Well.. the issue there is having to prove exactly what the tune has done to the engine. Would the judge just take the tuners word for it that their tune increases by x horsepower? Not sure how you would go about conclusively proving that - we all know that dyno charts are all over the place dependent on which one you go to - that's even if a court would accept a dyno chart as evidence.

I just feel it would be an uphill, costly struggle.

 

SEE THIS THREAD AND OTHERS LIKE IT ON THIS SITE... https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f-type-x152-72/2017-f-type-r-tuned-100-hp-178358/

 

Well I was glad to supply the CPO brochure. You guys and gals over here on the F-Type forum are really active! I will add one more note that when a CPO is requested from Jaguar the selling dealer has to supply a check sheet with everything on the CPO checklist checked off and any and all repairs the selling dealer has done and that they paid for to get the vehicle in compliance. So there needs to be a record that any dealer can have JLR check that the inspection or repair was performed prior to a CPO sale. Lastly as has been said anytime the SDD is hooked up to a Jaguar or Land Rover it is connected to JLR headquarters to verify any and all updates are done or available. If it were me I'd go to another dealer and have them check the CPO and hook up the SDD.

 

Has the OP ever confirmed that he bought the car from a Jag dealer and if is the servicing dealer or a different one?

 

I appreciate that you aren't an attorney. I assume you also aren't an engineer. You are clearly missing some key points.

1) The point about modifying the ECU to lower the red line wasn't an actual suggestion - it's just an example of what you could do in a tune that would presumably not add a risk of mechanical failure. Your suggestion to just do other changes that increase the HP leads to:

2) Any engine modification that adds power, also increases stress to the engine, transmission, and a sundry of mechanical components. Increased stress can easily relate to increased risk of failure. Even if the tune only took the engine from a base model to an "S," Jaguar could argue that the added warranty risk is part of the premium you're paying for when they sell the higher performance version. (I can't speak for JLR, but it's true for pricing in my industry.)

3) Outside of Manufacturer emissions compliance and gas mileage claims, the EPA doesn't certify engines and transmissions. They don't even do that for after-market tunes.

4) If you think Jaguar is the only brand that charges for higher performance tunes, you should get out more. (You might start with the nearest Porsche dealer.)

 

At this point I doubt he actually bought from a Jaguar dealership and he likely bought an extended warranty that he "thinks" was a CPO. The REASON for this is that he mentions that the Jag "dealership" is also a Mercedes "dealership" and that just doesn't happen so...odds are he is mis-understanding what he bought & who is servicing his vehicle.

Also, due to laws, the ENTIRE warranty could NOT be voided. The ONLY warranty component that could potentially be voided would be for coverage of the engine and drive train (due to the chip tune). YouTube videos of people claiming that ECU tuning does not void your warranty are simply that... one persons OPINION and often the person posting it hasn't got a clue. They just like to talk like they do.

Giving up on this thread... have fun folks

 

You know what they say about assumptions...I could assume I have way more engineering background than you do, for instance...

FYI: I put myself through my last year of high school while working two part time jobs (technical in nature), studied Electrical Engineering in technical school where I established a 4.0 GPA and was recognized as Whos Who in Americas Colleges while working jobs and maintaining a academic scholarship and a construction job at the college, and got a full academic scholarship at UT College of Engineering (Architecture) and studied under Dr. Johnson before I saw a better opportunity and joined a formerly tiny outfit formerly known as PC's Limited here in Austin in '91 and was promoted 10 times in 10 years where I helped design and engineer very complex custom IT storage solutions, retired and invented some stuff, got rehired, retired again, now I own and run my second business, so, guess i know nothing...

As for my law resources and background, I hear and soak it in almost daily, my brother holds a degree in Mechanical Engineering, Masters in Biomedical Engineering, and a Law Degree, although it is his wife who Practices Law daily here in Austin. My point is I get as much advice as needed from engineers and lawyers (If I want it or not), as well as advice from my independent Gold Certified Jag Technician.

If I need more support and advice? My Stepbrother and his Wife are Corporate Lawyers, he's a Partner and Texas Superlawyer for many years.

My Father is a Practicing Attorney. So was my stepmother until she passed recently.

Why do I get so worked up when dealers screw their customers? It's wrong! I've personally been awarded two large lawsuits from automakers, one which I was the Plaintiff and I have likely helped save driver's lives by identifying a fatal metal flaw in a transmission part that would handgrenade while driving due to substandard materials made in Mexico to increase Corporate Profits, and then installed in a large Japanese automakers flagship sedan, from which a national safety recall was eventually issued.

The other lawsuit was the largest ever awarded, $16 Billion in damages, FBI arrested VP of Corporation, perhaps you heard about it? ( I learned about the Diesel trick before the labs did, when the TDI would not tune up and give extra hp like all the earlier TDI's would!)

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/09/b...ettlement.html


So I am not operating from a vacuum my friend. I am a auto consumer that has been screwed too many times over, and who won't roll over for the Dealer Bullshix.. I suggest that other consumers don't fall for those BS lines either. The fact that Pixel's car was tuned should not leave him without any warranty in the USA.

Sarcasm and rant over...




Please name a single Porsche model where they market two new models for sale off the same showroom floor where the ONLY difference is in the tune HP, where they have not ALSO modified the Manifold, the Exhaust, or the transmission. I will be very, very interested if you could name a couple that are out this year....where the ONLY difference is the tune! (I doubt that you can, but Jaguar does this exactly this as a marketing decision...again Jag has established there is no engineering constraint preventing one from safely running that engine and drivetrain at 400HP.)


Personally I have notified Jag Corporate's Executive Liaison that I have tuned my car using a third party, and my car has been serviced at the dealership since with zero hassle and all smiles! So far, Jaguar has been nothing but excellent to us. I do not try to deceive the automaker. In fact since then they had me and the wife out to COTA as VIP's to drive the Rovers and the XE-S on the short track with Jaguar Race Drivers and Landrover Instructors!

Now back to topic: Pixel, did you buy this used car from an ACTUAL Jaguar Landrover Dealer? Or from a used car dealer that sells many brands? This could be key to you next steps...




????

 

It could be a group of dealers together. The Jaguar dealer I bought from is also an Aston Martin and Mclaren dealer. In fact, they did the "reveal" of my car over in the Mclaren building. The Jaguar and Mclaren dealers were connected by the service department for both it looked like. I think the building for Aston Martin was around the corner. I still tend to agree that he may have purchased from someone who claimed it was CPO, but it was THEIR certification and not an actual Jaguar certification. I've seen used dealers do that and they offer their own in-house warranty.