Going back to the original discussion,

I use exclusively this oil https://www.motul.com/us/en-US/produ...gh-rpm-0w20--2


I don't put much stock in this but it could be true:

Pretty well laid out review https://paultan.org/2014/07/17/motul-review/

 

stick to the topic - keep the other garbage offline!!! No need to rehash here!!

 

Respectfully, if you ask to stick to the topic... is the topic calling someone a thug and the merits of it? Switching to technical matters was a much better choice for a constructive discussion. Perhaps the thread was a dud from the beginning with a rather off topic subject matter.

 

Totally agree. A big reason that I went with VelocityAP was their involvement in the forums. I wanted a company that not only provided good customer service but that also listened to the feedback of the customers. Many companies ignore their "enthusiast" community which can be a great free source of feedback and testing.

Another thing to keep in mind is that VelocityAP presence on the forums and good reputation here gives them more incentive to provide good customer service and gives customers insight into the company. The fact that VelocityAP has been honest about their tunes being detected and why they chose not to make their tunes "hidden" says volumes about the company. This isn't brand loyalty, it is fact based decision making.

 

All tunes are detectable. The only way around it is a piggyback system (Racechip to name one), but that too with careful review of the stats can be found.

 

I forget the details but there was some tuner here who was able to reverse-engineer the checksum algorithm so if you put his tune on the ECU it would not throw the "non-factory calibration" flag. He claimed that his tune was not detectable, which Stuart pointed out really wasn't true. Yes, his tune didn't throw the flag but if the technician tried to update the ECU, he would brick the ECU and the tune would be detected that way.

Anyway, other tuners are welcome to come on this forum, however, it is just a fact that over here they don't have the long history of customer service that VelocityAP does. They will need to build that level of trust and trashing VelocityAP is probably not the best way of doing it.

 

You are indeed correct. As I recall one of them did make that claim and it was another forum sponsor. He then tried to create all sorts of secrecy over their amazingly secretive process.

 

It is possible to do this, but it's basically a one shot deal.

 

The groups (bootmod3 and a couple others) that tune the BMW F8x series have somehow managed to figure out a way to make them 'undetectable', as in it won't flag as being tuned when plugged into the dealer's kit. Dealer could still figure it out if digging into engine usage parameters etc. like peak boost though. AFAIK they are also on Bosche ECUs so I imagine a similar tactic could be deployed here to limit detectability. Not sure if that has been implemented?

 

What is the point of trying to conceal the tuning? To hope that one preserves the warranty? That is completely unethical and wrong. If you get a $35-50K engine replacement for FREE, you in effect take money out of JLR's pocket. Money that can go towards R&D or simply keeping the pricing competitive. Either buy the powerplant that meets your needs or beware of the potential costs. As many others, I am a business owner, nothing upsets me ore than someone expecting something for free invoking the warranty terms when they clearly caused the damage and tried to conceal it. If it's a few hundred dollars, I may just let it be but when it's thousands of dollars, it gets sorted out in court. I certainly appreciate those that wisely chose to wait and not do it during the warranty period.

 

 

 

 

How did trying to get something fixed for free come into this?

What if JLR found a known defect in some engine component that has a very low probability of being affected by an ECU tune, and then refused to fix it for me because their kit automatically flagged my car for warranty denial? Would it be unethical for me to want my tune to be concealed so I get it fixed anyway?

 

Or here's another scenario...

Say I get a VAP tune and don't touch power/torque, but I just want to install the 200 cell cats so I have them code out the check engine light. Jag is still going to flag my car for warranty denial and if something comes up, I would have to fight them on it. I'd rather just not have to deal with it and have the tune be concealed. Again, many perfectly ethical reasons for concealing a tune. I think VAP should keep on keeping on.

 

 

That's not a "perfectly ethical" reason to conceal a tune. I'm not convinced there are any. Do you know all the possible implications of that change? The manufacturer has to prove that the modification caused the problem (in the US, anyway) so a leaking differential seal is going to be difficult to deny. What about a head gasket? No change to power/torque/boost, so still difficult. What about a burned exhaust valve? Can you adequately defend that? Maybe, but anything different than factory settings can potentially cause problems not anticipated by the factory. You should either be prepared to accept that or not. I'm not saying that you should roll over if the dealer says everything is null and void because you strayed from factory settings, but understand what you're doing and be ready to face the consequences. Also understand you might get screwed.

 

 

I think the issue and why some people wish to conceal tunes is down to how dealers treat you after tuning your car.

For example my last car was a brand new Mustang, within 30 days of ownership, I had a new full intake system (manifold, CAI, throttle body), complete exhaust system and a full custom remap all on a brand new car. I did not try to conceal because most Ford deals (UK anyway) totally understand that there customers will tune their cars and as such they still support warranty claims. They use the principle if you tune your engine, even fit a blower, if something fails on the car and the tuning is believed not to be the reason they will still repair the car.

On my new Mustang I had the following fails, oil cooler failure (has become a known issue now), catalyst failure and some other niggles. Did Ford instantly say "oh sir you tuned it, warranty void" of course they did not, they fixed the car as the dealer was of the belief the tune and aftermarket items had no impact on the car or were reason for failure.

So my point is, you should speak with your dealership, ask them if you fit a CAI, or an exhaust and you have a problem with the car will they become unreasonable and deny your warranty or will they actually use common sense and have some knowledge to understand that actually fitting items like high flow cats, larger radiator is actually good the car and thus lengthening its life due to running cooler and as such any failure would be very unlikely to do with those items. It might be a case the dealer agrees and approves, but they want to install said modifications to make sure they are done correctly.

It is when you tune things become a lot more tricky, because if you do have an engine failure, JLR will always request the ECU for investigation typically, not because they suspect you of foul play but they will want to investigate the reason for failure and as such will thoroughly check the ECU's data and also inspect the failed hardware. Now a tune from a reputable tuner should never cause a failure and the reason for failure could be down to worn ancillary item or manufacturing error, the issue always is will your dealership be willing to investigate and fight your case for you or will they simply take the stance, you modded it, your warranty is void.

Ford has a huge modding community, Jaguar does not, that is what your up against, thus I would always check with your dealership if they are willing to allow you to fit performance parts. Alternatively if you want high flow cats and Jaguar approve just fit them and ignore the CEL light but maybe make a habbit of reading of the code weekly to make sure no new codes have appeared for maybe a genuine issue.

Remember your stock ECU on the F-Type can adjust fuelling, timing within reason for different fuel grades, IAT's and maf flow. So when you make it breath better the maf will report more air passing which in turn the ECU will command additional fuel, what causes the cel is when the 02 sensor goes out of its pre-determined range within the ECU tables due to there been more emissions.

It is like everything on our cars, they are full of sensors, every time the ECU is flashed, it is logged by a counter checksum that is stored in a different area which typically cannot be hacked or altered and if it can there will be very few who know how. Then your car has essentially a black box recording data, so if you decide to say fit something like a Race Chip, this won't trigger the flash counter checksum and is generally un-detectable, but if your engine pops and JLR suspect foul play they can interrogate the black box data and see if something on the car has been running out of their pre-determined specification, namely boost and fuelling, what makes Racechip more difficult to detect is if it truly does it job of fooling the ECU, then in theory all the logs will show the car was actually running as it was supposed to do so.

A device like Race Chip connects to your SC boost pressure sensor and your manifold pressure, so to put it simply it fools the ECU. On a V8 the stock SC pulley is good for 15psi, but the factory ECU bleeds the boost off via a valve when a certain boost pressure is reach to limit horsepower at given RPM. What Race Chip do to gain more power is simply fool the boost sensor by 2psi to put it simply, of course they do a lot more as well on the fuelling side (manifold pressure sensor), but as the ECU is actually thinking nothing is out of the ordinary due to the fooling of the sensors is how they gain their extra power, but this is always why the gains are less than a true remap as Race Chip have to make sure everything is still within a safety limit to prevent any issues.

So how do Jaguar detect a Race Chip then? Well between me, you and the rest of the forum I am not actually sure but there are probably sensors recording sensors that are separate from the ECU map (black box) that have no impact on the cars running, they are just recording the sensors and those probably report the true values. So if a V8S is 10psi stock, you fit a Racechip which fools the ECU to deliver upto 12psi, the ECU still thinks your at 10psi, but in reality your at 12psi, somewhere there shall be a separate sensor that no doubt records you were actually hitting 12psi, a sensor/black box which Jaguar can interrogate and then maybe suspect foul play but still I suspect it would be your word against theirs as very hard to prove, but would you really want the headache.

In short, check with your dealer with what they will or won't allow you to do.