The Jaguar F-Type Coupe is the most gorgeous rolling machine currently built, according to me. And since its arrival, the question has been how the littlest Jag measured against Porsche's best — even though it slots somewhere between the 911 Carrera and the Boxster/Cayman. To make the racing portion of its case, Jaguar invited me to a racetrack outside Barcelona stocked with prototypes of the hottest variation yet, the 542-hp F-Type R Coupe.

All of the test cars I drove earlier this month were prototypes built in October 2013, still undergoing test-mule software tweaks. The R Coupe weighs 33 pounds less than the 488-hp V-8 S convertible, has a structure that is some 80 percent more resistant to bending than the open F (making it the most rigid Jag ever) and a notably stiffer suspension. Everything on these not-quite-final cars was damned solid.

How would this new roofed beast go on a fairly technical track? At these power/torque ratings, I needed to play with the onboard systems quickly to find the right calibration. When I accelerated between hard weight-shifting curves, the throttle required a light touch. And get the line just a bit wrong and the revving anchor up front could send the nose pushing through the turn. On the flip side, the potential for subsequent power oversteer through Pirelli P Zeros never disappears.



For closed track conditions, Jaguar has more work to do making the chassis sing in harmony with the R's engine. The stability control's work with the electronic active differential and brake torque vectoring needs more software refinements; I missed the benefits of a top-notch mechanical differential, though Jaguar insists they're there.

The deployable rear spoiler preserves the coupe’s lines while helping the rear tires hold grip. Of course, one of the great benefits of massive power and torque through a tail that can get light on its toes is easy burnouts even without the help of the Launch function. And the Pirellis, like many Italians, love to smoke. (The optional panoramic glass roof makes it easier to enjoy the show.)

The F-Type R's optional ceramic brake discs – 15.7-inch front with six-piston calipers and 15.0-inch rear with four-pot units – are a must-have on this particular trim; whatever helps reel in the beast is highly desirable. And the R Coupe felt decidedly more nimble with the lighter Storm 20-inch wheels required to accommodate the discs. Everything on the track went much better for me with all these strategic changes at the four corners. (And yes, maybe the first four laps with the R coupe sans special wheels/brakes had gotten the wiggles out of my system on a track I hadn’t driven before.)

Most of what I felt during the sessions was really as good as many of us have wanted this car to be. But it’s those obligations — to be genteel with the throttle, to really nail every line through curves — that left me feeling the F-Type R Coupe is best as an on-road sports car rather than an on-track Thrashzilla. The overall balance of this maximum F is a bit unforgiving should some semi-pro like myself get it slightly wrong. Porsches of this current generation are every bit as quick or quicker, and they are thrillingly forgiving and progressive. Hesitating to switch to Track settings on the stability control in ideal conditions, or trailing off throttle for too long because of a tangible sense of fast diminishing lateral grip, speaks to me more of a car greater on the road than of a great track car.

The eight-speed Quickshift auto gearbox via the paddles at the steering wheel does an impeccable job doling out the performance and the sound through the four-tip sport exhaust. On many cars I agree with most automakers that manual transmissions have no role anymore. But some Porsches, and certainly this smallest and peppiest Jaguar, go beautifully with a great manual six-speed. The base F-Types and the V-6 S trims would represent the company well to the 30 percent or so of customers in some markets who would jump for one. The official line: “Within the next two years an announcement will be made.”

North America gets the full line of F-Type Coupe trims starting on April 28. The base 335-hp F with roof is priced at $65,000, the 375-hp F-Type S at $77,000, and this R trim at $99,000. The two 3.0-liter six-cylinders already cut to 60 mph from a stop in under 5.0 seconds, while the R with supercharged 5.0-liter V8 – top speed 186 mph – should do it under hard testing in 3.5 seconds or I’ll go buy a hat and eat it.

No, the Jaguar F-Type R Coupe is not a Porsche, or an Aston Martin or a Corvette Stingray. It is somewhere right in the middle of that heady mix, making it an intense and unique breed of cat.

Pagination

 

As a long time racer I know that weight is of primary importance when it comes to track performance. The F-type is kind of HEAVY! Too bad, I was actually hoping for closer to 3300lbs than the delivered 4000.

Still, when I test drove the V8S convertible, it was a fun car for the streets and highways. Handles fine enough where most owners will not sense the extra weight. As far as all out performance, it was only about a single second behind the much lighter Carrera when tested at Laguna Seca by Randy Pobst. I fully expect the R-coupe to outperform the Carrera when Pobst gets to it this year.

I was also hoping that the same Jaguar suspension team that produced the XKR-S-GT would tune the R-Coupe's suspension. From what has been posted on this forum, that seems to be the case here. So, I am looking forward to test driving the Coupe. As to what is forgiving, I would take a front engined car any day over a rear engined Porsche when it comes to forgiveness for highway driving. I could never trust that weight behind the rear axle of a 911 not to get nasty in some slightly overcooked corner...

Albert

 

If you're looking for a track car get a Nissan GTR. It will blow the doors off of anything on the track; modified, it will take you to the moon. The F-type is a more street friendly roadster built for street enjoyment. It will never be king of the track without a lot of work which I think will never happen. The F-type is a great car for its target market as a street performance roadster.

 

We have two of them in the club and they are a wonder to drive. Getting a little dated now but that means you likely can get a decent used one for not a lot. The F-Type is a ton of fun on the track but the GTR just chewed up Ferrari's and I expect it would do the same to my V8S if I let it. Tempted to pick one up for fun myself.

 

The R Coupe against a Carrera?????


How about the top Jag against a Turbo S or GT3 or even a Cayman S
The lateral grip you get from a Porsche is and always will be superior to what Jaguar can put on the road, at least for now. I never felt I was even close to the limit in any of my P cars but I would never dare in any of my Jags to just floor the gas pedal on exit of a turn. Now an R may turn out a better lap time than a Carrera in the hands of a skilled driver but you are also comparing 550hp to 350hp ... sorry but that would never be very impressive.

 

Couldn't agree more. As a recent owner of two 997s those apocryphal tales about rear engine dynamics always bring a wry smile, as curiously few of those tales ever come from those who actually own or have spent much time in a modern 911. The 911's ability to take a corner and the traction available as you come out of a corner is just astonishing, and it is the engine placement that enables this. The rear engine isn't anything other than an advantage, it makes the car what it is. Porsche engineers are pretty much the best in the business and what they do with this car defies belief, albeit with one caveat. The caveat is this - my V8S is a lot more powerful and much faster overall than my two 997's (both Carrera S) and while the 911 has it beat in the handling department, it doesn't have the soul or passion of the Jag. The Porsche is ruthlessly and clinically efficient, but it is the Jag that puts the bigger grin on your face. Right now I'm loving the soul and passion much more than I ever loved the clinical competence of the 911 but be under no illusion that the modern 911 is to be celebrated and respected, not feared.

 

Look at the torque differences. If Porsche would have the same amount of power and torque you would also feel the limits of traction much more readily. Having said that, I've have not been impressed with Jaguar performance suspensions and the relatively slow track times of the various XKR variations testify to that. From what I read a different suspension team finally got it right with the XKR-S GT. If they do the same good job on the F-R, it would be a great handler, despite its overweight.

As far as comparison, the Carrera is the right target since the prices are very close. The GT3 is much more expensive than the F-R and the Cayman has far less power, albeit likely better handling, largely due to its low weight. The Cayman could be better compared to the still heavy F-V6S.

Porsches are only decent handlers since they put in all the electronic wizardry, wide rear body and super wide rear tires to counter that nastiness of that engine-behind-the-rear-axle. I test drove the 930 Turbo back in its time and it damned near killed me under normal (120MPH) road conditions where my other high performance cars were completely unaffected. Since then, you could not make me drive a 911 variation if you gave it to me free. This is what one of the top professional Porsche racing driver, Bob Akin, had to say regarding the handling of the old 911:

"You can't make a race horse out of a pig but, you can make an awful fast pig."

Sure, the rear engine has its advantages in accelerating traction and anti-dive characteristics but, a front engined performance cars will always be infinitely safer for street usage and even for track, where you get more confidence out of them. With the 911 you alway have to be concerned about that mass of weight, way back there, as once it starts spinning it is much harder to recover than in a front or mid engined car. That is why the 911 has never been a particularly fast track car, always been beaten by much less expensive front engined cars, such as the Vettes, Camaros, Mustangs, etc.

Don't forget, the 911 is a 50+ years old design and, if it were any good, other manufacturers would have followed. The only ones that did over the decades have abandoned the rear engine design for its inherent flaws. The Cayman/Boxter mid-engine design is far superior and if die-hard Porsche enthusiasts would allow, could propel Porsche ahead of the competition on tracks and on the street. Not sure if you remember but, the Porsche factory tried to abandon the 911 for a better design a couple of decades back but, the cries and threats from the speed limited American shores forced them to change their minds and continue with that archaic chassis.

Albert

 

Citing a 930 somewhat undermines any point you were trying to make. Many if not most modern cars from even mainstream manufacturers can outperform pretty much anything from that era, it's an incredibly weak argument truth be told. There's a reason the 911 is the benchmark car in its class. Car guys get it, those that cite weak opinions using cars from 1975 won't. That's OK.

 

Same chassis design, same basic characteristics.

I never followed the religion that journalists or the masses prayed to, which is one of the reasons that I was very successful in track racing and building street performance cars. Both my street and race cars absolutely blew away any 911 variation Porsches that they encountered.

Albert

 

Come on, Albert. "Blowing away" cars on the street typically has very little to do with the car and much more with the willingness of the drivers to put other road users at risk.

Either way, it's obvious from your own statements that you've not driven a modern 911 so I'm really not sure your opinions on the topic carry all that much weight. As I said in my post, curiously few of the anti-911 opinions come from those who've actually owned one and/or spent a lot of time behind the wheel of one. As for your race horse/fast pig analogy, the simple fact is Porsche does build a race horse - the results the car has achieved in professional racing over the years speak from themselves. The car has a record that's truly second to none.

The bottom line is that anyone who chose a 911 could have chosen a Cayman, a Corvette or myriad other supposedly "better" cars, but they chose the 911 because it is what it is - a tremendous car that's still the class benchmark for the simple reason that it's an excellent and incredibly well engineered car. This isn't magazine talk. It's owners spending real dollars.

Edited to add that apropos of nothing in particular, I note that I serendipitously posted this at 09:11 am

 

James

You don't have to take my words for it. Simply look at the widely listed track/lap times by professional testers to see how the 911 is way off the list.

As to the racing successes of the 911; yes, there are plenty and the 911 have a pretty solid record. However, what the pubic does NOT know is that most racing 911s do not come with rear engines. They have full purpose built racing chassis with the engine moved to the mid-engine configuration. Also, racing, in many ways, is a far more predictable experience than street driving. In racing one practices for hours/days/weeks every single corner and every single aspect of driving/braking/accelerating/cornering until you come to an optimum. So, even street 911s can be fairly safely driven on tracks if the owner recognizes that, for example, trail-braking is not the forte of the 911 so, break straight and early and accelerate hard out of a corner, using the rear-bias traction advantage. Still, do note that all kind of far less expensive and exotic cars are shown to go considerably faster by pro drivers than the 911.

Porsche made a respectful engineering job in trying to overcome the rear-engined problems. Still, far from enough. I my, and many other purist's, opinion the rear engined cars, like the VW bug and the 911 should never had been built in the first place, less survive for 50+ years.

The funny thing about journalists/testers is how they unconditionally praise the 911 in every new test write up. But, if you read carefully, more often than not, they list the shortcomings of the previous models, which shortcomings were NEVER mentioned when it was the "new" model. There are some exceptions as this test of the new GT3 shows the exact same old problem that came with the original 911s 50 years ago:

2011 Porsche 911 GT3 RS First Test - Motor Trend

"Front-end bite is exceptionally sharp, while the rear feels light on its rubber. Your hands best be quick if you try to brake into a corner, because that rear will take a giant lateral step. When it does, chances are you'll exit stage left and backwards. Either that or those foot-wide rear tires will hook up and send you in a high-speed tank slapper."

That is what I mean, "no trail-braking" in a 911, or else... Also, "front-end bite being sharp" is new, older Porsches were know to be terrible at under-steering in slow corners.

Albert

 

Wow, this is just .... wow.

Porsche, most susccesful brand with most races won ever.

All those races were won with a car that did not have the most horsepower in the race line up and you claim that the handling of the 911 platform is inferior to that of front engine rear wheel drive cars ... ?

Wow, I just leave it at that, there is no point arguing technicallities back and forth for pages on out.

Just a little read on how out dated 911 design is ....

To use the price as any measure of comparison is laughable.
Jaguar is offering by far the cheapest horsepower in the "exotics" segment for a reason ... they are struggling to turn this brand around and to gain customers.

It is that simple, why would ANYBODY who is not already a Jaguar fan buy an F-Type over a 911 or M or AMG or any others ... certainly not based on Jaguars reputation amongst non-Jaguar fans. So to say that because they sell a Type R incredibly cheap compared to its competitiors is reason to compare it to a base model is nonsense. If this is the "best" sports car Jaguar can build than it has to face a GT3, an Italia, a Black Series or a Vantage S or whatever the sportiest iteration maybe.

 

The review you posted wasn't the new GT3, it was the 997 GT3 RS. Ignoring the fact that the writer of the review you posted seemingly loved the car, the 2011 GT3 RS was in fact Evo's car of the year, just as the 2010 GT3 RS was also their car of the year - the first time I believe that the exact same car won for two years running. The new GT3 was the Evo car of the year this year too. The 911 has in fact won the award more than any other car. I don't think Porsche engineers are going to be coming to you, Albert, for advice on how to build a performance car. They're doing OK as is.

 

Regarding the Cayman vs. 911 test; now I say WOW! They declare the 911 the winner when it uses race quality Michelin tires vs. run-of-the-mill Bridgestone Potenzas tires on the Cayman. Even the article says that given teh same tires the Cayman could have been the winner. Probably would have been.

Excerpts:

"...imagine for a minute a Cayman RS armed with more than 400 horsepower, a nice fat set of Pilot Sport Cup tires, and another dollop of carbon fiber. That would be one awesome Porsche. And one likely capable of finally eclipsing the iconic 911."

also:

"...But dropping the throttle at 80 mph made this car extremely loose. At an entry speed of 85 mph, the 911 spun every time. Why? Because the combination of lateral (cornering) and longitudinal (propulsion) loading and the 911’s large polar moment of inertia finally overwhelmed the rear tires."

Again, this is the same old problem. Dropping the throttle should NOT make a car "extremely loose" (translate; spinout danger). See that thing about the, "large polar movement". (translate; the heavy rear-bias weight spining the car out) despite the huge rear tires.

So, we could go back and forth on this. Ultimately we buy what we think is best and I personally stated that I would not only not buy a 911 but, I would not drive one fast if one was given to me free. Needless to say in a low speed limited environment where most people hardly exceed speed limits, far less the average cornering limits of the cheapest Toyota Corolla, the 911 will be a safe choice. If, however, you decide to take the 911 to its limits, beware and pray to survive that drop-throttle response, particularly during trail-braking.

Albert

 

It is also a MID engine car compared to the "fataly" flawed rear engine design - not even a front engine rear wheel drive. I had a stage three turbo charged Cayman S. Even with grippier tires the mid engine Cayman would have been just more equal not dominating the 911. As you clearly overlooked all the other points in the article. The lower CG of the 911, the more weight on the rear wheels not just during accelaration but also during breaking. The lateral grip was slighly better for the 911 on cup tires and may fall on the Cayman's side with better tires but from what you were saying a 911 is so unmanageable and unruly it should have nowhere near the lateral grip compared to a mid engine car no matter the tires. That weight HAS to come around at some point, doesn't it.

As for racing history you seem to have very limited knowledge. Most of the wins for Porsche did not come from Porsche factory teams but from privately owned Porsche teams. They either start with a bonestock 911 and turn it into a racer or start with a factory RS or RSR which has no changes to the 911 basic design. Sure there may have been some versions of highly modified 911 where the geometry of the car was changed but 80%+ of all wins are based on the unchanged 911 platform which is true for all sports car classes including GT2 and 3, Cup and club races and rallies.

So if the stop watch was so important, as was your comparison of price before, why don't all those cars with better lap times not take Porsche out on the race track? Why do Porsches continue to dominate whatever series they participate in with arguably the fewest factory sponsored teams of any brand? Again the same question why do Porsches WIN while while they have less horsepower than their competitors in the same race if there design is so inferior?

 

Well I just love the F and all the talk on this thread is way out of my league. Interesting
results in the 24 hours at Daytona. I didn’t see if there were any “F’s there but there were a lot of 911’s. Here is a short result of the race:


Joao Barbosa kept the No. 5 Action Express Corvette DP ahead of the No. 10 Wayne Taylor Racing Corvette driven by Max Angelelli at the end, giving Barbosa and co-drivers Sebastien Bourdais and Christian Fittipaldi the victory and giving Nelson another Daytona win and another line for his resume.

Scott

 

well, it looks like we'll end up going round in circles with this one. I couldn't agree with you more, Schwabe, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I'll simply say this - to observe the following:

"So, we could go back and forth on this. Ultimately we buy what we think is best and I personally stated that I would not only not buy a 911 but, I would not drive one fast if one was given to me free. Needless to say in a low speed limited environment where most people hardly exceed speed limits, far less the average cornering limits of the cheapest Toyota Corolla, the 911 will be a safe choice. If, however, you decide to take the 911 to its limits, beware and pray to survive that drop-throttle response, particularly during trail-braking. "

is simply ludicrous. The 911 is consistently tested against other high performance cars and it consistently delivers the goods. From the recent Chris Harris test of the F-Type, Vantage and 911 through to the 911 winning the 2013 Motor Trend Best Driver's Car award (where it beat some impressive rivals) - it's clear cars that aren't safe at the limit can't do that.

Some quotes from the judges from the Best Driver's Car test:

"Kong: "The 911 urges you to beat on it. You feel the urge to push the accelerator and brake pedals hard, pull the paddle shifters hard, and bend into that corner a little faster than the previous run."

Lieberman: "It's just an incredible machine to drive. I kept thinking to myself, 'This is the big boy Porsche.' If you need proof at just how outstandingly good the 911 is, this year's Carrera 4S gains weight compared to last year's 2WD model, yet lapped Laguna faster (1:39.19 versus 1:39.30)."

Martinez: "The harmony between chassis, suspension, engine, and dual-clutch transmission is uncanny."

Kiino: "When I said the Cayman S left me wanting more, I guess I was talking about the 911."

Lago: "The difference between writing in cursive and printing. Feels repeatable; lap after lap, I can improve and be consistent. Feels like a car I could learn for a long time, like the start of a great, long relationship."

Loh: "The most unstoppable, confidence-inspiring vehicle I've driven yet."

Burgess: "A couple of times, the person behind me was catching up to me. At first, I took this as a condemnation of my driving, but then I realized that everyone catching me was driving the 911. After that, I never got in line with the 911 behind me, and no one caught up."

Jurnecka: "This car is unflappable at any half-sane speed. There's just too much here to exploit fully on the road."

Randy: "I hate to use the word 'driver's' car, but that's what comes to my mind after having just driven it. The 911 is just so much better on the race rack than anything else we have here." As for me? I'd bet real money my cornering speeds were higher than in any other car. It just kept telling me I could go faster, push harder, and it would take it."

2014 Porsche 911 Carrera 4S - 2013 Motor Trend's Best Driver's Car - Motor Trend Page 13

Now - with all that said, I bought an F-Type and not another 911, but make no mistake - the 911 is a fabulous car. It is a car you can drive to the track, thrash it, and drive home knowing nothing is going to break. It's a wonderful machine. It lacks a little soul, it's more clinical and hugely competent rather than being a car which inspires passion, but it's a tremendous car. To argue otherwise in my book is just asinine.

 

I am with Albert on this, as i personally don't care what some journalist/reviewer think of a car - Lagos etc, the entire Motortrend team. Most of them probably couldn't do a simple brake change anyway.

I find them very repetitive in every episode, saying the same exact things about every car. Makes me question if they know what they talking about.

I have never driven any 911s, therefore can't exert my own views on it. Not sure if i ever will either, as i don't find them attractive regardless of their superb performance.

The F type is superior in every way, even when it's 4000lbs. It's heavy weight derives from combination of lots of things. It's got more motorized parts in it, than anything else in it's segment. Larger wheels, bigger engine, bigger transmission, bigger brakes etc... All of which i welcome.

 

Not to flog a dead horse, and I happen to agree the F Type has a lot of advantages compared to the 911, but I do find it interesting that such strong opinions exist from folks who've either never set foot in the car and/or base their opinions on a car from 1975....

 

It is on purely SUBJECTIVE terms that the Porsche wins. Never the performance categories. Subjectiveness is nothing but an opinion or religion. I remember when in one test the Vette absolutely destroyed the Carrera in EVERY performance PLUS ride quality categories, yet, the testers concluded that the 911 won because "it had soul". Excuse meeeee....??? Most auto testers are snobs and that will be a cold day in h*ll when they will declare a Corvette the winner over a Porsche 911, no matter if the 911 is 5 seconds/lap slower than the Vette and has an atrocious interior, like they used to years ago. Ok, lets look at some hard, objective measures:

Laguna Seca lap records - FastestLaps.com

Carrera S is barely even with the stock Mustang Boss with its rudimentary chassis, live rear axle and stock 420+ HP engine. Or, next:

Virginia International Raceway lap records - FastestLaps.com

Carrera is 27 place a full 7 seconds/lap behind the new 2014 BASE Vette. You know what 7 seconds mean in racing? A lifetime. The Vette simply outlclasses the Carrera by a HUGE margin. If you tried running in canyon with that base Vette, you'd be sorely embarrassed by it in a 911.

As to me not being familiar with racing? You might be right, after all I only raced for decades, winning 4 yearly Championship titles while doing all the fabrication and suspension setup on my GT2, GT3 and open wheel formula race cars.

Albert