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I know I am comparing 4 potters to sixers,but in my missus p300 XE (twin turbo 4, same engine as the base F Type) there is no lag at all and the acceleration is very linear all the way up to the speed limit. You would be hard pressed to pick the difference to the base 6, save for sound.
I know I am comparing 4 potters to sixers,but in my missus p300 XE (twin turbo 4, same engine as the base F Type) there is no lag at all and the acceleration is very linear all the way up to the speed limit. You would be hard pressed to pick the difference to the base 6, save for sound.
I love the immediate response from supercharged engines, my F type is my first experience.
I have owned three turbocharged cars, all oem fitted turbos and whilst the basic point about delayed response has some truth I feel it's a limitation that is either exaggerated or more true historically.
Modern turbo development of lighter impeller and compressor wheels (using ceramic in some cases) plus switch from journal bearing to ball bearings all reduce the delay.
Together with careful sizing and multiple smaller turbos on V engines can also optimise response.
Also let's not forget whilst supercharger are also improving and are spinning whenever the engine is and hence moving air, they have considerable mass and more importantly rotational mass (inertia) which has to be overcome when rpm increases.
I love the immediate response from supercharged engines, my F type is my first experience.
I have owned three turbocharged cars, all oem fitted turbos and whilst the basic point about delayed response has some truth I feel it's a limitation that is either exaggerated or more true historically.
Modern turbo development of lighter impeller and compressor wheels (using ceramic in some cases) plus switch from journal bearing to ball bearings all reduce the delay.
Together with careful sizing and multiple smaller turbos on V engines can also optimise response.
Also let's not forget whilst supercharger are also improving and are spinning whenever the engine is and hence moving air, they have considerable mass and more importantly rotational mass (inertia) which has to be overcome when rpm increases.
I have two turbocharged cars that are very pricey sports cars. If I slam the pedal down to hear a loud thunk on the floor, I can count "one thousand one, one thousand two" before anything starts to happen. Both are tuned with different tunes. Plus, the resulting 0 to 1 turbo rush is hard to modulate accurately, if not impossible. I think both cars are inexcusably awful to drive from a throttle response POV.
I have two turbocharged cars that are very pricey sports cars. If I slam the pedal down to hear a loud thunk on the floor, I can count "one thousand one, one thousand two" before anything starts to happen. Both are tuned with different tunes. Plus, the resulting 0 to 1 turbo rush is hard to modulate accurately, if not impossible. I think both cars are inexcusably awful to drive from a throttle response POV.
Yeah, I've driven lots of laggy turbos, I had 5 volvos with the 5 potter turbos and drove several 4 potter turbos when they were serviced, the 4 potters especially were laggy. The 4 potter ecoboost in the XE was a little surgey as well - a kind of slingshot feel. The 220kw igenium though is in another league, there is no discernable lag at all. You couldnt even count "one" before it launches, it actually takes some getting used to. There is less delay from that than you get in the sixes and 8s from the transmission.
The twin turbo 3.0 in our Maser makes 424hp and 414 ftlbs at 1700. Supposedly Ferrari is working on a 550-600hp version for an upcoming "opening" range model. A V6 still has a way to go. In sport mode our Maser is only slightly slower to 60 than my V6S. Also the new straight sixes from Merc are very hot in the different versions.
My folks have a Ghibli SQ4 -- the spec you listed above, and the turbo lag is incredibly apparent. I drive it quite a bit too so am very familiar with the driving dynamics of the car. I don't have much experience driving other turbo'd cars, however, but I can say, that sort of throttle lag is not something I'd want.. I can almost guarantee that AMG's turbo'd cars are far better engineered, although I've not driven one.
I have a GLC43 AMG and a BMW Z4 M40i and turbo lag is virtually non-existant on either......didn't notice it on the new Porche's I drove either. That said, I'm a fan of the Jag's supercharged offerings
My folks have a Ghibli SQ4 -- the spec you listed above, and the turbo lag is incredibly apparent. I drive it quite a bit too so am very familiar with the driving dynamics of the car. I don't have much experience driving other turbo'd cars, however, but I can say, that sort of throttle lag is not something I'd want.. I can almost guarantee that AMG's turbo'd cars are far better engineered, although I've not driven one.
My last car was a 2015 Ghibli and the turbo lag was such that it made the available power practically useless in my normal driving activities. It would come into its own once the turbos spooled up, but by then I was risking life, limb and a significant moving violation citation. I much prefer the response time on my F.
I have two turbocharged cars that are very pricey sports cars. If I slam the pedal down to hear a loud thunk on the floor, I can count "one thousand one, one thousand two" before anything starts to happen. Both are tuned with different tunes. Plus, the resulting 0 to 1 turbo rush is hard to modulate accurately, if not impossible. I think both cars are inexcusably awful to drive from a throttle response POV.
I would agree that delay of that proportion is dreadful.
I would go so far as to say that any modern OEM turbocharged car that has two seconds throttle delay as you described is either not working properly or very badly designed.
Not an expert but I understand basic principles of designing for maximum possible horsepower typically uses very large turbo which are more prone to lag, this fine for drag type applications.
On a road car where even the most enthusiastic and skilled driver is never going to be full throttle for more than 5% of total driving then optimal design involves trading off some maximum power potential for better response with smaller turbos.
I would agree that delay of that proportion is dreadful.
I would go so far as to say that any modern OEM turbocharged car that has two seconds throttle delay as you described is either not working properly or very badly designed.
Not an expert but I understand basic principles of designing for maximum possible horsepower typically uses very large turbo which are more prone to lag, this fine for drag type applications.
On a road car where even the most enthusiastic and skilled driver is never going to be full throttle for more than 5% of total driving then optimal design involves trading off some maximum power potential for better response with smaller turbos.
It think it depends on the base engine displacement. A lot of people mistake decent size base engine response with a lack of tubo lag.
I drove the latest BMW M2 Competition with the 3.0 V6 410 hp engine (twin turbo) for a full day at the track (BMWs M drivers training course) last week.
It was a fun car to drive, and the turbo lag is often not noticeable - but a lot depending on how you drive it. If/when you are off the throttle and at a bit lower rpm's, the turbo lag is there.
Driving the supercharged V8 is noticeably different as there are no lag what so ever - everytime.
My last car was a 2015 Ghibli and the turbo lag was such that it made the available power practically useless in my normal driving activities. It would come into its own once the turbos spooled up, but by then I was risking life, limb and a significant moving violation citation. I much prefer the response time on my F.
It is a quick ride once you're in the right rev range, but man, before that, the throttle response is abysmal.
I do far prefer the way the transmission is set up on that car compared to ours. Interesting given the transmissions are the same ZF 8 speed box, but their trans software is so much better. Our downshifts are super boring vs in the Maserati, you get a rev match down shift feel and the noise the comes along with that. Dropping our cars into second or first slows the car dramatically, while the Ghibli gives it a blip of throttle to make the shift much more seamless.
Our downshifts are super boring vs in the Maserati, you get a rev match down shift feel and the noise the comes along with that. Dropping our cars into second or first slows the car dramatically, while the Ghibli gives it a blip of throttle to make the shift much more seamless.
When I manually downshift, my F-type gives a blip of throttle to rev-match. Am I missing something here?
Turbo lag is also inappropriately blamed on cars with slow shifting transmissions or gearing not properly matched to the engine.
Exactly, I had to get rid of my daughter's MiTo because of that issue. Changing down under 20kph it felt like you were riding a bike and the chain fell off, absolutely dangerous if you were entering traffic. Even some Jag transmissions have an element of lag, our previous XE (the 25T) had some issues there.
Exactly, I had to get rid of my daughter's MiTo because of that issue. Changing down under 20kph it felt like you were riding a bike and the chain fell off, absolutely dangerous if you were entering traffic. Even some Jag transmissions have an element of lag, our previous XE (the 25T) had some issues there.
Speaking of transmission quality. Is it true that our ZF8 is direct-drive in 1st and 6th with zero HP power absorption?? And 2% loss in the other gears? That squares with my V8 S stock 488 WHP dyno'd in 4th. 560 tuned.
Yeah, thats what the video says, that it locks to direct drive in 1st and 6th. But it would hardly matter with only 2% loss in other gears.
If true, a 550 BHP ZF8 car would pass through around 539 WHP in 4th, or 550 WHP in 1/6. It would take 635 BHP to get that at 15% loss. Or 647 BHP in 1st.
10-01-2019, 06:47 AM
