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Thank you for attempting to explain this to me. I read linked article.
Originally Posted by FLRRS
As the TVS2650 is more efficient at the range we are targeting and provides greater mass air flow at a lower temperature
I understand "more efficient" part, I get "greater mass air flow" but I still don't understand "at a lower temperature". Supercharger is compressor, it takes volume of air at one pressure applies mechanical energy that produces smaller volume of air at higher pressure. This will always result in heat and my understanding of fluid thermodynamics is that the same change in pressure will always result in the same amount of generated heat unless you change gas composition.
My understanding that at the same altitude, humidity and ambient temperature 14.7 psi of boost will produce the same amount of heat regardless of what SC you use.
Please explain to me how does TVS2650 gets around Charle's law? Here is accessible article that explains air compression process in more detail.
No problem, I started a new thread quoting our conversation to start it off as this can quickly become an essay and I don't want to hijack Therock88's awesome meth thread.
Apologies to Therock88 for the mess we already made. If a moderator reads this please feel free to remove the TVS 2650 related posts. Thank you.
No problem, I started a new thread quoting our conversation to start it off as this can quickly become an essay and I don't want to hijack Therock88's awesome meth thread.
Apologies to Therock88 for the mess we already made. If a moderator reads this please feel free to remove the TVS 2650 related posts. Thank you.
No worries buddy...And good luck with the SC argument...I mean discussion...
Thanks for answering my questions during my Methanol install as well Chris. Appreciate it! And I ordered your datalogger as suggested and it will be here Tuesday or so...Then if the weather holds up, I can do some checking on the effects (Will likely email you again for some suggested things to check...).
Appreciate the support. Tune, Pulley, and Meth all running great!
DC
Hey Rock88,
Have you gathered any metrics? I'd be interested in any feedback you could offer as to how many degrees the IAT drops with the system engaged at full boost vs off. And, also, if you've looked at how much timing the ecu is pulling at full boost before and after water/meth.
Have you gathered any metrics? I'd be interested in any feedback you could offer as to how many degrees the IAT drops with the system engaged at full boost vs off. And, also, if you've looked at how much timing the ecu is pulling at full boost before and after water/meth.
Hi there...Sorry...Have not had the chance to get much yet, but I will. Holidays, COVID, Weather, had to get new tires, added Cats, and now TCU Tune...After the Project 7 grille...Now, if the weather stays relatively warm I will try to do so. It captures a ton of data and my first time (only time) out with the datalogger, I was trying to learn how to use it. The spreadsheet output is massive....which is good!
OK...First of all, the setup has been running and the engine has been performing flawlessly. No issues and always peppy and cool! I noted that since I did not have a level sensor in the front tank, I never knew when it was empty (And it won't refill from the rear unless you press the WS Washer button...Otherwise the logic assumes, it can't be empty if it has not sprayed - Flawed logic! ).
So I installed a float/level sensor in the front tank and it worked great...My indicator light on the WMI System would do a single flashing fault light, and I knew I needed to hit the washer stalk and refill from the rear.
After doing this for a bit, I realized how fast I was emptying the small front tank - And I had also started installing a system and tuning my Ford Raptor....And realized how nice it was to have that huge tank (on the Raptor)…So I decided to modify the system I put on the F-Type.
So the new system is essentially the same, except I tapped in to the rear (much larger) tank. Works great. Posted a few pics below of how I did it...And you can ll have a good look at what the bumper looks like on the inside, and off the car.
Essentially - I tapped the rear tank on the bottom (Had to remove Rear Bumper Cover and tank )
Ran the lines along the length of the car, adjacent to the factory cabling, and enclosed the hose in a loom for extra protection...and then ran it up into the pump area of the front tank, and just capped off the old hose/fitting.
Had to use a T connector temporarily while I ordered some other fittings.
While I had it all open, I used the opportunity to sand, and re-spray my exhaust tips etc...
DC Rear Bumper Removed Tapped Rear Tank Tank Tap (View from Below Car) Rear Bumper Cover Back Side Bumper Cover Removed, Tank Tapped, and Re-Installed. Ran WMI Tubing along Factory Harness and Enclosed in protective Loom. Tapped into original location with "T" - Replaced with 90 degree Elbow and Capped Tank again.
Have you gathered any metrics? I'd be interested in any feedback you could offer as to how many degrees the IAT drops with the system engaged at full boost vs off. And, also, if you've looked at how much timing the ecu is pulling at full boost before and after water/meth.
Still have not done much with the VAP Datalogger as it is a bit convoluted to use. I did get the COBB Access Port as I have been tuning my Raptor (Twin Turbo V6)…But thought I would share the info from logging. As I was doing the pulls for the custom tunes I would see Charge Air (IA) temps rise quite a bit -20-40 degrees at times So in the 110 - 120 range... Running about 21 PSI boost - peak. With the WMI turned on, my highest CAT (Charge Air Temp) was ~89 degrees no matter how many pulls I did. (Again, this is on the Raptor, but similar effect on air temps).
I only have one nozzle on my Raptor - spraying 500 ML/Min. I have two on the F-Type spraying a combined ~ 800 ML/Min (Approx). So it is effective at cooling! I also then added an Intercooler upgrade on the Raptor and tested again...Same pulls and about same temps and the CA Temps never got above 60 degrees (+ 4 degrees over outside temps).
When it warms up again, and/or when I got to my next airstrip race with the F-Type I may run the VAP Datalogger and see what is does...I can turn off the WMI with a switch I installed under the dash....So easy to compare!
OK...First of all, the setup has been running and the engine has been performing flawlessly. No issues and always peppy and cool! I noted that since I did not have a level sensor in the front tank, I never knew when it was empty (And it won't refill from the rear unless you press the WS Washer button...Otherwise the logic assumes, it can't be empty if it has not sprayed - Flawed logic! ).
So I installed a float/level sensor in the front tank and it worked great...My indicator light on the WMI System would do a single flashing fault light, and I knew I needed to hit the washer stalk and refill from the rear.
After doing this for a bit, I realized how fast I was emptying the small front tank - And I had also started installing a system and tuning my Ford Raptor....And realized how nice it was to have that huge tank (on the Raptor)…So I decided to modify the system I put on the F-Type.
So the new system is essentially the same, except I tapped in to the rear (much larger) tank. Works great. Posted a few pics below of how I did it...And you can ll have a good look at what the bumper looks like on the inside, and off the car.
Essentially - I tapped the rear tank on the bottom (Had to remove Rear Bumper Cover and tank )
Ran the lines along the length of the car, adjacent to the factory cabling, and enclosed the hose in a loom for extra protection...and then ran it up into the pump area of the front tank, and just capped off the old hose/fitting.
Had to use a T connector temporarily while I ordered some other fittings.
While I had it all open, I used the opportunity to sand, and re-spray my exhaust tips etc...
DC Rear Bumper Removed Tapped Rear Tank Tank Tap (View from Below Car) Rear Bumper Cover Back Side Bumper Cover Removed, Tank Tapped, and Re-Installed. Ran WMI Tubing along Factory Harness and Enclosed in protective Loom. Tapped into original location with "T" - Replaced with 90 degree Elbow and Capped Tank again.
Great addition!
Did you have to re-fit the tank level sensor to the rear windshield reserve?
Great addition!
Did you have to re-fit the tank level sensor to the rear windshield reserve?
Thanks. No changes to any other items. Front Reservoir works as OEM (when low gets refilled from rear reservoir), and rear reservoir feeds the front reservoir like always, and also directly to WMI Pump, so it lasts a lot longer now. The rear reservoir already has a level sensor...IN fact...When the front sensor shows low level...It signals the rear reservoir to refill. The rear reservoir has a sensor to actually let you know when the fluid is low.
Thanks. No changes to any other items. Front Reservoir works as OEM (when low gets refilled from rear reservoir), and rear reservoir feeds the front reservoir like always, and also directly to WMI Pump, so it lasts a lot longer now. The rear reservoir already has a level sensor...IN fact...When the front sensor shows low level...It signals the rear reservoir to refill. The rear reservoir has a sensor to actually let you know when the fluid is low.
Thanks...And my pleasure. Took me longer than expected, trying to figure out placements, and waiting on parts (because almost NO entity can be counted on anymore!)). But what I ended up with here (there are infinite ways to do this) is a system that works well, can be turned off with a switch to disable at any time, maintains normal Windshield/Headlight washer functionality, is completely stealth and factory looking, and can be removed with almost no trace it was ever there.
I will gather my pictures and thoughts and put together the info in a DIY PDF file for easy reference and use. Will try to capture items of interest I learned as well that may help anyone considering it.
On the Dragy...I agree...But I need to find some new rear tires first. I have no idea how this happened, but somehow my rear tires are totally worn out already??? It is an AWD (rear-biased), but every time I press the pedal, it slips and spins like crazy. It definitely has some torque and power...Never stops accelerating until I let off!
My goal was to get it close to my 997 TT (with $30K + in upgrades), and it feels pretty close actually now... Close enough anyway since it is prettier!
OK...First of all, the setup has been running and the engine has been performing flawlessly. No issues and always peppy and cool! I noted that since I did not have a level sensor in the front tank, I never knew when it was empty (And it won't refill from the rear unless you press the WS Washer button...Otherwise the logic assumes, it can't be empty if it has not sprayed - Flawed logic! ).
So I installed a float/level sensor in the front tank and it worked great...My indicator light on the WMI System would do a single flashing fault light, and I knew I needed to hit the washer stalk and refill from the rear.
After doing this for a bit, I realized how fast I was emptying the small front tank - And I had also started installing a system and tuning my Ford Raptor....And realized how nice it was to have that huge tank (on the Raptor)…So I decided to modify the system I put on the F-Type.
So the new system is essentially the same, except I tapped in to the rear (much larger) tank. Works great. Posted a few pics below of how I did it...And you can ll have a good look at what the bumper looks like on the inside, and off the car.
Essentially - I tapped the rear tank on the bottom (Had to remove Rear Bumper Cover and tank )
Ran the lines along the length of the car, adjacent to the factory cabling, and enclosed the hose in a loom for extra protection...and then ran it up into the pump area of the front tank, and just capped off the old hose/fitting.
Had to use a T connector temporarily while I ordered some other fittings.
While I had it all open, I used the opportunity to sand, and re-spray my exhaust tips etc...
DC Rear Bumper Removed Tapped Rear Tank Tank Tap (View from Below Car) Rear Bumper Cover Back Side Bumper Cover Removed, Tank Tapped, and Re-Installed. Ran WMI Tubing along Factory Harness and Enclosed in protective Loom. Tapped into original location with "T" - Replaced with 90 degree Elbow and Capped Tank again.
Haven't run 60-130 in my 997 TT in some time (and usually don't log times etc.), but the few times I did - the 60-130 was just under ~7 seconds. Best I recall is 6.6. But again, only checked a few times.
Originally Posted by Terrance39
Also what lift is that in your garage?
The lift in the 4th bay (Under the Cayenne S) is an Atlas - Mid Rise Scissor Lift. The one in the 3rd bay is a MaxJax - 2 Post - Portable Lift.
Haven't run 60-130 in my 997 TT in some time (and usually don't log times etc.), but the few times I did - the 60-130 was just under ~7 seconds. Best I recall is 6.6. But again, only checked a few times.
The lift in the 4th bay (Under the Cayenne S) is an Atlas - Mid Rise Scissor Lift. The one in the 3rd bay is a MaxJax - 2 Post - Portable Lift.
DC
Nice I ran a 6.7 60-130 so you're goal is achievable. I gotta get that lift. Where did you get it?
Nice I ran a 6.7 60-130 so you're goal is achievable. I gotta get that lift. Where did you get it?
Good time. Like I said, I never really focused on it...It just came up as I was doing other runs...Captured on the device(almost accidentally)…Never focused on it TBH.
On the lift...I just ordered direct from them. HERE IS A LINK.
Do you know why tapping the MAP sensor didn't work? Have you modified your timing to take advantage of the improved knock-resistance (there's a LOT of HP to be gained there!)? If so did you dyno the difference by chance?
Do you know why tapping the MAP sensor didn't work? Have you modified your timing to take advantage of the improved knock-resistance (there's a LOT of HP to be gained there!)? If so did you dyno the difference by chance?
I just prefer a boost signal. So that's the kind of controller I bought. You can definitely do it with a map signal I guess. No I never got to tune for meth. I just used it as a cooling source. And I agree there was definitely power left on the table. I sold the R and now have a SVR. And didn't go with meth this time. Instead i just beefed up the cooling system a little more and had the car tuned on E40. Adding meth and tuning for it would no doubt give me power. But I am ok where the power is now.
Do you know why tapping the MAP sensor didn't work? Have you modified your timing to take advantage of the improved knock-resistance (there's a LOT of HP to be gained there!)? If so did you dyno the difference by chance?
There's zero power to be gained from ignition timing, if the meth nozzle is injected before the intercoolers.
If you plan to bump ignition timing for a power increase from the meth octane count, the WMI needs to be a port style(1 per cyl) and located after the intercoolers.
The reason for the individual nozzles; The manifold was designed to flow air and not a fluid, it's near impossible to guarantee the same amount of W/M mix will enter each cylinder and not favor only a few. Being you cannot bump timing on only a few cylinder, you needs to make sure all is equal for the timing commanded of all cylinders...aka 1 nozzle per port.
While there's still benefits of installing nozzles before the intercoolers to lower the IAT, it will not increase the octane count because the meth would be vaporize long before reaching the combustion camber.
So, either you are grinding/drilling/tapping the intake runners for clearance and install of the nozzles before the IC's, or manufacture spacer plates to lift the entire supercharger assembly and sandwich the nozzles between the heads and blower. The only drawback with the spacers idea, would be the IAT2 sensor would be above the WMI nozzles and not see this cooler mix, and dependent on the software this could pull back timing or dump charged pressure as a safety measure to reduce charged temps.
__________________
________________ Christopher Edgett Technical Director Velocity Automotive Performance Limited 214 Maple Ave. Oliver, BC Canada V0H 1T9 Office Tel: (250) 485-5126 www.VelocityAP.com Tuning@VelocityAP.com
Do you know why tapping the MAP sensor didn't work? Have you modified your timing to take advantage of the improved knock-resistance (there's a LOT of HP to be gained there!)? If so did you dyno the difference by chance?
Just decided on the throttle. Easier to get to and same result ultimately. I have an electronic AEM controller (also used on my Raptor) and it works great. Others do too, I just like the 0-5 volt variable controllers personally. MAP or MAPT will also give a signal, but has to be under load, so harder to test/set, and why it was not working in garage.
I have not Dynoed....I just know it is fast Put same system in my Ford Raptor truck and got a tune and it is pushing ~630 HP now. Raptors have both Port and Direct injection on a Twin Turbo V6 engine for reference.
Just decided on the throttle. Easier to get to and same result ultimately. I have an electronic AEM controller (also used on my Raptor) and it works great. Others do too, I just like the 0-5 volt variable controllers personally. MAP or MAPT will also give a signal, but has to be under load, so harder to test/set, and why it was not working in garage.
I have not Dynoed....I just know it is fast Put same system in my Ford Raptor truck and got a tune and it is pushing ~630 HP now. Raptors have both Port and Direct injection on a Twin Turbo V6 engine for reference.
DC
How many nozzles are you using on your Raptor? Most of the water-meth sites and videos I see are all 1 or 2 nozzles and getting tune gains. I don't understand why VAP says we need a nozzle per cylinder in order to get tuned for Meth...
10-29-2020, 04:18 PM
No worries buddy...And good luck with the SC argument...I mean discussion...
