Based on that data 1/4mile was ~11.15/127 . Not bad.

 

My information comes first hand from seeing the IDS readout on cars that have been tuned. It is a known fact that it is detected & logged in the ecu.

 

11.13@127 1/4 mile

 

I wanted to double check with James before posting. During his wheel and tire install one of his suspension sensors threw a code that wouldn't allow him to enter Dynamic mode. This required a trip to his local dealer and ended up with him receiving a new sensor.

During the visit, at which point the car was already tuned and pullied, the dealer was unable to detect that the ECU had been reflashed.

I'd like to point out that 1) Not every dealer cares if you're car has been tuned, in fact most don't simply because they want you to continue a relationship with them and purchase or lease more cars. 2) Most service advisers don't know up from down, much like car salesmen and mushrooms they are most often kept in the dark and fed crap. 3) Dealers themselves can always flash the ECUs back to stock.

If the head of your dealership service department gives you any flack for wanting to tune or having your car tuned, talk to the sales manager or dealer GM. Inform him you don't appreciate being treated as such or having someone tell you what you can or cannot do with your $100K+ car and that there are other dealers out there that don't operate in this fashion. Remember GM>Sales>Service. The service department is the low man on the totem pole, so handling any service related issue is really very easy to do.

Thanks!
VMax

 

There is a fatal flaw in that line of reasoning, and it's really not the dealership that matters. The significant risk that one faces with a non-OEM, tuned ECU is not with routine warranty service (e.g. brakes, electrical systems, suspension, or any other non-engine related problem), but with what happens when an engine "grenades." In that case, the dealer must be get approval for warranty reimbursement from a manufacturer in order for the dealer to be reimbursed for a very expensive repair or replacement.

That manufacturer will most certainly require significant diagnostic forensics, and if the dealer doesn't find anything, they'll likely ask for the ECU to be pulled and sent to the manufacturer.

You are right that most dealers don't really care, but the manufacturer cares a lot, and the dealer does care about getting paid.

 

You are correct about what happens when "an engine grenades". The key is to not blow them up in the first place, we find mitigating blowing up engines to be the best way to keep our customers happy and not having to deal with such a scenario.

I think it's important to remember these are simply ECU tuned engines with a minimal (sub 2psi) boost gain we are talking about. No one is spraying a 200 shot, or slapping on a 4.0L Whipple, these are minimal modifications meant to optimize a nearly stock engine.

While I hesitate to even say this publicly, it has happened and will continue to happen regardless so: There is plenty of time for a dealer or tuner to flash the car back to stock in the event of a catastrophic failure. I'm not saying we condone this, but at the same time if the tune wasn't the cause of the failure but would give JLR an "out" so to speak as for not warrantying a new engine, plenty of dealers and I'm sure all tuners would be happy to go this route to save the customer a huge headache.

Thank You

 

Flashing back to stock won't work either if the manufacturer does forensics. There will be a record of the non-OEM flash, and a record of the flash back to stock. Moreover, with a blown engine, after the flash back to stock, there won't be any data indicating that the engine has run since the stock re-flash. That would be clear and compelling evidence of an attempted cover-up.

The first tuner to step up and state that honestly and explicitly is the one I would most likely do business with. I strongly believe customers should be completely and honestly informed.

I realize that with a "safe tune," engine failure is highly unlikely, but a bone stock engine can also fail. My '06 C6 Z06 engine failed at 20K miles, and fortunately, it was completely OEM, even though I was almost ready to tune it. I received a new engine after they carefully analyzed the ECU and complete engine at the Bowling Green assembly plant. I can have almost complete certainty I wouldn't have any trouble replacing an engine under warranty if it's completely unmolested, and I know that's not the case with a tune.

I'm not ruling out tuning my car, I do understand, and would accept the slight risk, but I'm just waiting to be convinced with compelling data and most importantly, complete honesty.

 

Actually, the ECU would merely show a stock file, not (at least via our tool and methods) who reflashed the ECU back to stock (tuner or dealer). There is no black box capability in these ECUs as in an airplane. That last statement takes things a bit too far. In such cases where ECUs have been flashed back to stock that we know of, the customer receives a new engine covered under warranty, and again the dealer receives payment for services rendered. I will again state if the tune is the cause of the failure, this is not morally or ethically the correct way to handle things. However, if the tune wasn't the cause of the failure, it simply removes the chance that the manufacturer can use the aftermarket as a scapegoat and most importantly doesn't leave the customer in limbo or hanging.

We have posted and I have personally PM'd you why we stated and continue to stand by what we have said in this forum and to any customers or potential customers. We have objective proof that the dealer cannot tell that our tuning has been flashed onto the ECU by a Jaguar dealer tool. Until we see otherwise, stating anything else would be dishonest. Per your own definition of "complete honesty" you can find no fault in what we've said or written.

I believe this horse has been beaten, severely if not to death. We are available via PM, email or phone to further discuss such concerns. Otherwise let's please give James his thread back now.

Thank you to "XJR-99" for pointing out we failed to post 1/4 mile numbers from James' VBox data initially. His deduced ET and Trap were amazingly close to the actual numbers which were subsequently extrapolated and posted.

Thank You
VMax

 

I'm not going to debate this any further (beyond this last post), but what you say conflicts with what I've learned from many other sources. Thus, I'm not convinced. I suspect there are methods and technology you may not be aware of, so it's entirely possible that you are answering honestly to the best of your knowledge.

I wish you and your business the best!

 

Thank you and likewise. As you may or may not be aware we have been doing this for a living in a black and white label capacity for over a decade on the European side. Suggesting that we are lacking in ability or knowledge because your claims are different than ours is a bit uncalled for and presumptuous, however we are confident that over time our products will speak for themselves.

Thank you and best wishes to you as well!

VMax

 

Sorry, but I can't let that part in bold above go without comment.

I "suspect" (my exact wording above) it's possible that you or any other tuner may not know everything with regard to the current technology, which is likely proprietary. It would be "arrogant" to claim you know everything there is to know about what a manufacturer can and can't do. Unless you have been deep inside the automotive industry, you wouldn't have access to everything pertaining to ECU forensics.

My questions are both "called for" by any intelligent consumer and far from "presumptuous." I am a potential customer wanting answers and what you say conflicts with other information I have received.

It's my car I would be risking, not yours. I also made no "claims" other than to say your accounts differ from other apparently informed sources, and I would need compelling evidence that you are right, and they are wrong. You have not provided that.

 

Vmax,
I don’t understand why you are so dismissive of Foosh’es points. I noticed another tuners' thoughts on this matter here: Stage 3's Stance on Tuning and Your Vehicle's Warranty

It seems to me to be a balanced and fair stance – you could even call it honest. Of course the car owner runs a risk. Of course a modification is detectable, in fact it’s just sitting there waiting to be compared to stock version and easily found to be “different”. I mean by someone qualified and motivated, for example the manufacturer as part of a post mortem check.
But all that doesn’t take away from the great work you do making an awesome tune available to us and our cars – so keep up that part. It seems to me like you have unleashed good punch in jamesjaguar’s sweet ride! I am very interested in getting the same treatment later.

 

Several of us have worked both for and with OEMs in our careers, and again our objective information differs from yours--you can verify our information by speaking to James.

There is nothing proprietary about the ECUs running your cars. As previously posted they are all in the same family of Bosch MED17s used by everyone from Ford to Mercedes Benz for forced induction direct injection engines. These are not Boeing 777s, there is no "Event Data Recorder".

You've made it clear, repeatedly so, that your "information" differs from ours. Duly noted, again, thank you.

Now please, back to the thread.

Thank You
VMax

 

Jm717,

Thanks for posting the link. I think we are looking at two different questions overall: 1) Can the dealer detect VMax's tuning on my Jaguar F Type? 2) Will an aftermarket tune (via any tuner) void my non-specific vehicle's warranty?

As you have likely read as pertains to question number 1, Foosh's claims and ours differ on the ability of a Jaguar dealers tool to differentiate a factory calibration from our own.

As far as what Stage 3 has posted regarding question 2, I would say that it is true if you happen to have a very strict dealer, or the tuning in question is the cause of a catastrophic failure. That said, we have never, not once, had a vehicle have a warranty voided because its ECU was tuned by us. Regardless of make, model, model year, type of engine, etc.

I would say from personal experience those with the most to worry about (and a large percentage of these owners still tune their trucks) are the HD diesel truck owners running Ford, Chevy or Dodge diesels. This is mainly due to the huge increases in torque accompanied by ECU tuning and the lack of ability for the rest of the driveline to hold together. This is one reason we stay out of that arena altogether.

Basically in theory, yes a dealer could void your warranty for being tuned, but in practice or reality, it's a very rare occurrence. If you were to poll other aftermarket tuners on this site I would be willing to bet you would get similar answers as far as the number of customer vehicle warranty voids they've had.

Agreed on the fact a hardware modification is easily detectable especially in a worst case catastrophic failure scenario. The software end isn't as black and white as again if the stock file is on the ECU there isn't much the manufacturer can do.

I hope this clarifies things a bit for everyone.

Thank You

VMax

 

That is an inaccurate characterization of what I said. I'm not talking about a tool the average Jaguar dealer has, I'm talking about what's available to a manufacturer. And actually, most cars including Jaguar's do have "black boxes" not as sophisticated perhaps, but not unlike an aircraft data recorder. Even my 06 Z06 had one. It's not mounted on the ECU, but it does communicate with it.

As I also said in discussing what happened to the engine of my Z06, I was told by the dealer that GM wanted the entire engine w/ ECU back for their own diagnostics process because they can find things we cannot. As I've previously said, it has little to do with how "strict" a dealer is. They are just independent franchisees, but it has everything to do with what a manufacturer wants to see in the case of an engine replacement.

And you want me to verify what you said by "speaking to James?" Who is James other than a customer?

 

Wow, that Stage 3 tuning link you posted is awesome! Finally, someone is brutally honest. It was also brilliantly written. That's the kind of company I'd want to do business with.

I've never seen anything like that from a tuning company, and thanks for posting it!

 

Your comments "If the head of your dealership service department gives you any flack for wanting to tune or having your car tuned" is funny. Your approach would probably not get you to far. If the car has a check engine light the techs will see the non oem calibration fitted. I can tell you from personal experience the first thing the tech will do is blame the tune. If they have to open a technical case with Jaguar a session file & vehicle scan will be sent. They will see that the car has been modified. From that point you could speak to the GM as much as you want. He can't help you.

 

It is simply detectable on the standard IDS computer all JLR dealers have. I have seen it many times. That being said the best thing you can do to one of these cars is a pulley & a tune. It is like a different automobile. You can turn off the traction control & break the rear tires loose @ 40mph. The one thing I would tell everyone after there car was tuned was to be careful.

 

Bold= Thank You.

Yes a manufacturer can find sulfur by products coating the piston tops to see if an engine saw any nitrous (even with the OEM calibration), but an OEM ECU tune is still an OEM ECU tune.

James is the customer whose car this thread is about. He can tell you directly, independently of us about his dealership experience and their inability to detect with the Jaguar specific dealer tool that every dealer has, our ECU tuning. James is not an employee of VMax, so feel free to PM away vs continuing to waste space in this thread .


Congratulations! You've found your tuner of choice. Can we please move on now (for the third time).

Thank You
VMax

 

Something tells me you're talking about the V8. One of my other main concerns is that many claim the V6S is close to maxed out. I suspect I have more to gain with a base car.