I'm bringing this up again. The V6 is only in the North American market. In the rest of the world the P450 is about half of all sales. In US it appears the P300 is becoming about half. Since the 450 is just a detuned version of the V8 I wonder why we still get the less powerful engine as the middle model.

 

See my comment here on the earlier P450 thread: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...0/#post2301802.

 

I'll bet your estimate of the P300 accounting for about half of North America sales is correct. Every time I do a search for F types in dealer inventory within a 100 mile radius of me here in Southern California, I see a whole lot of of P300's and convertibles. And a poor selection of V6's and V8's.

My guess is that entry level F types are popular for those who like the style and prestige and aren't really enthusiasts. I really need to find a dealer who has both a P380 V6 and Type R V8 on their lot so I can drive them back to back before making my decision.

 

I have hard time believing that 4-banger F-type sells well in US. How could it, when Mustangs, Chargers and so on can be had 500+ V8 for less money and with upper trims of these cars pushing 800? Even F-type R with 575 is at least a generation behind the power curve.

You might as well add sliding doors and 3 row seating if you are going to go that way.

I mean, econo-rice cars Honda Civic Type-R would embarrass P300, less a real performance car like C7 or C8.

 

p450 seems really compelling, you can also choose rwd or awd. If the engine internals are the same as the R, it'd be great value. even better if other hardwares are the same or available, like SC, intercooler, suspension.

If my 2015 R gets too old and the above statements are true, I'd spring for a p450. Oh wait its not available in NA for what reason???

Edit:

Im in the industry and you'd be surprised how many people don't give a **** about hp and sound.

Notable example being a guy choosing a GLE53 vs a x6 50i or GLE63(he can afford both), reason being oh the v8 is too loud and too hard on gas. Then he opted to include the AMG exhaust as a must have option. He then proceeded to bother me with the MB meconnect app, which he must have more fun with than the car itself.

Another guy asked for a camaro, I asked if you liked power, "no need", do you care about sound? "no no I want it to be quiet". I died a little inside and told him oh great the 4banger would suit you perfectly! He ended up with a crv, I have no complaint.

 

What a customer lol. I have talked to quite a few people who go with the 4 banger pony cars due to cost, and of course the comfort in the back of their mind that tuning will make up a good chunk of the power loss.

 

Let me shine some light on that 4 cylinder context from the perspective of an European:

My wife and i (32 years, without kids) are solid upper middleclass (top 10% income wise) here in Germany. I work as a software developer and my wife is in management (both in multi billion companies).

We bought a P300. Let me tell you why:

The looks:
As Dwight correctly anaylized, the looks of the car play a huge role. Its one of the best looking cars in my opinion. I mean if you dont care about the looks you can get the current gen Volkswagen Golf R which does 4.2 0 - 62mph/100kmh. So i guess why buy the P450? It needs 4.6s and costs double that of a Golf R.

Of course the looks play a huge part, at least to me.

The handling:
For me the handling was maybe, with the looks, the most important 'must have'. The reason i didn't just buy a BMW M4 or any other Sedan (like a Mustang, but damn as a European muscle cars aren't easy on the eye, they are so ugly). The car handles exceptionally good. The weight, which most would consider a negative (and is for performance), is for me a positive handling feature. It just feels planted and is so good to steer into corners. I love it.

Performance is enough:
I wanted a car i could daily drive but was sporty enough to handle the mountain roads i have right in front of my door (living in the south of Germany close to Swiss/Austria near the Lake of Constance). The power is enough for everything i've done with the car. I have a Kia Stinger GT which does 0 - 62mph/100kmh in 4.7s. The car is not more fun to drive and honestly, it doesnt feel that much faster even though its 1s faster to 100. I rarely had moments where i thought 'oh damn i need more power', maybe on the Autobahn at around 200kmh (124mph), but i rarely drive that fast and you rarely can because of traffic or speed limits. On mountain roads there is a speed limit of 100kmh/62mph. Plenty of power for those speeds.

And also i can easly get 36mpg (6.5l /100km) and even with driving spirited, im at around 9l / 100km (25mpg)

Price:
Just having the money to a buy a 100k car in cash doesn't mean its a reasonable thing to do. I bought the car for ~40k€ being just 2 1/2 years old and still having full Jaguar warranty, which i needed shortly after because one turbo was slightly noisy (not dead, just an annoying rattle). A good v6 or v8 are 55k€ (v6) to 80k€(v8), which is nearly double. Of course you can get a 4 year old out of warranty v8 for around 60k, but thats still 50% more.

As a Swabian, i don't like loans, so i paid the car in cash. That was important to me. I have zero debt and i intend to keep it that way.
I am currently thinking about getting an older v6, but im not sure yet. Money isn't the problem, it's more that we Swabians are obsessed with saving money

Antisocial:
In Germany, and pretty much all over Europe, too noisy cars are considered anti social and we call people driving them 'Posers' or just retards. There is a difference between a good sounding Porsche or Ferrari and the absolute madness the older v8 F-Types are. Im just too old for that. Most "Posers" are foreigners in Germany spending half their income on some BMW M4, Mercedes C63 or some tuned Golf, with 2000€ a year on insurance and most are < 30 years. Lol, it's just too cringy. Im too old for that. The Jaguar for me isn't that type of car and doesn't need to be, therefore the v8 is an absolute no go. Also a reason why i fancy with an older v6 (380hp).

In Europe and Asia more than 50% of sales are the 2.0l engine. The v6, even though all internet keyboard warriors seem to love it sooo much, just didn't sell that well. Also the reason it was scraped, next to the new EU emission laws.

And im kind of tired of you so called 'enthusiast'. Srsly you are the exact opposit of an enthusiast. Entitled elitist i would call it

Stay healthy.

Greetings from Germany.

 

Great post! And spoken like an "entitled elitist".

 

You can pick the correct english word And sorry about all that off topic, i just expected the first comment if i didnt go into detail to be "you just couldn't afford it anyway". So i guess the context is needed.

And as RayRay also made the experience. Most P300 buyers are not poor

 

If you're poor, you're not looking at Jaguars!
I have a theory that many people (not us, obviously!) buy the cheapest car they can't afford - they know how much they can afford and will always push a bit to include that essential extra ...

And I meant that it was a great post, I enjoyed reading it!

 

Oh ok i edited it back. I think i need to work on my sarcasm detector. Doesn't work with foreign languages

I know a couple of people who dont' have money and still look at 50 - 80k cars. It was no fiction the cases i mentiond in my comment. I personally know people who drive expensive Mercedes and BMW and i know their income. They better should not be driving those cars.

But in the end its all about what its worth to you and only to yourself. Its fine if you really want a big expensive car, as long as its not the result of peer pressure or some fictional society status.

 

No offense intended to those who chose the 4 cylinder F Type, but here in California where a great percentage of the population is more concerned with image and keeping up with the Kardashians, I suspect that the entry level F types are sold to a great many customers for image alone. And I'll bet a lot of the drivers are females. If the 4 cylinder was offered with a 6 speed manual I think we would see very poor sales, that same customer wants an auto transmission.

Personally, I see the F type as a "gentleman's sports car". I realize that for the money you can buy one of the American muscle cars that will outperform the V6 and even the V8. But it isn't all about 0-60 times.
At age 65 I am finally financially able to buy a $100K car as a weekend toy. It seems crazy, I know. But I have always wanted a Jaguar and it fits my personality. I have owned sports cars and sport coupes almost exclusively throughout my life. I bought an AWD SUV last year when I retired and moved up to the mountains and it was purely for practical purposes. But I am still a bit of a motorhead at heart and am looking forward to having a high performance 2 seat sports car again.

 

Nobody needs V8 just like nobody needs F-type. I personally associated V8 with luxury.

On my F-type having only V6 was a cringe-factor, but I compromised to have a manual gearbox.

There are some interesting turbo 4-cylinder engines, but Ingenium I4 isn't one of them. It is firmly geared at economy segment of the market and in my opinion does not belong in a flagship car.

 

I think a lot of that is to get Jaguar's overall emissions down to meet EU regulations and avoid penalties.

 

I'm no gentleman!
But I know what you mean, it's a bit classy.

 

We have the p300 in our XE and I love it. It is perfectly matched to the transmission, pulled strongly and consistently, and sounds pretty good. I prefer the 380 (now 450) hp 6, but really I think aside from the noise factor - which is big for me being a bit of a yobbo - the p300 would be more than enough for me in the F Type. It drives better than Jags NA 5.0 (now discontinued of course), and personally I think it is better than the base 6, I was surprised to see it as marginally slower in the stats. Some of that is likely transmission improvements. But that isnt to say I wouldnt prefer the v8 or the v6, but I dont know how much of that preference is driven by ego.

 

The paper figures for the p300 don't really tell the full story. It misses the instant throttle response of the supercharged engines and that, together with the theatre of the sound is a big part of the overall appeal for many. The P450 might well be the pick of the range just now. Choose the rwd version and add the vap tune and you've got the 2015 R again for a bargain price compared to its rivals.

 

The P450 is not a 6, but rather an 8.

 

Poser/'retard' here. I won't speak for anyone else. I'm a car guy. The overpowered v8 F-type speaks to every car guy fiber of my being. In general, I'm a somewhat shy, environmentally conscious, frugal person. But I was seduced by the over the top F-type. It connects directly to the 13 year old 'me' who grew up watching Speed Racer. Clearly not practical. I cannot defend it with a logical argument. However, this car is my alter ego... or maybe just plain ego and I adore the ever loving sh*t out of it.

Oh, and to further diminish my case, I'm 52 years old and putting 2 kids through college.

 

My apologies for the confusion, I meant my 380 6 which is now a 450, post pulley and tune.