Keep us posted on this, interested to see what develops

 

A Ecu piggy back will never be as safe as a full reflash when done properly on both accounts. I'd never purchase a piggy back if the ECU could be reflashed. I get you're trying to sell your product, but I don't think it's the best solution for a high end performance car. There is more to consider than A/F ratio.

 

Thanks for the input.
I certainly see your perspective and agree. I would question what makes a "proper" ecu reflash.
I've yet to get exact info from any tuner that tunes the Jags about specifics. Long term, short term fuel trims, gear ratio tuning, timing, etc. and the ability to truly tune the Jag's ECM.
All I've gathered is limiter removal and air mass tuning.

Not saying other parameters can't be tuned, but it seems everyone is simply tuning the A/F or "Specific air mass". This would be the same thing that the controller would do.
I've contacted multiple tuners or tuning software companies that have figured out the hex coding, all that I've spoken with have limited access to these ECM's. If someone had radical cams, headwork out the wazoo, and some other craziness going on, yea a full ECM reflash would be necessary in my opinion. For the standard performance guy, wanting to get more umph out of his car with the ability to adjust via software, a piggyback makes sense.

I have tuned many Ford ECM's in the past and prefer to do my own tuning with cars, so I just decided to create what I needed and give it a try. This is simply an additional option for people that desire the same as myself, not to sway one from a reflash. I like options.

I'll certainly let you guys know what I discover. Who know's maybe it's only worth a few hp. Per what I'm seeing on WOT a/f readings, I'm south of 10:1 stock on multiple different ECM's...so it looks promising.

Regards,
Derek Fricke

 

I am not disagreeing that a full reflash of the map would be "safer" but there seems to be an issue with tunes sticking in the ECU at all.

It is possible that a piggyback module could avoid the unlearning of tunes that has been raised as issue with the various tunes people have tried.

I would rather have a piggyback mod that boosts hp between 5,000 and 6,200 rpm at full throttle and stays in effect over time than a full reflash that only works for a couple of months.

The original tune has been described as "pig rich" ...it is common to for manufacturers to run a rich tune in a boosted application to help keep temps down and avoid detonation. I suspect there is a safe and easy 50 hp in a leaner A/F ratio for the V8s, especially given the higher output of the R and project 7. Not to mention the higher H.P. per cubic inches of the V6. If it was 150 hp I would be worried about safety.

Even at 50 hp, I would want to monitor the exhaust temp, cylinder head temp, a/f ratio and/or oil temp. This is especially true if I was spending a lot if time over 5,000 rpm. This is another reason I would like instrumentation for this car.

 

I have not heard of anyone having problems with their vehicles un-tuning themselves. Not to say it isn't happening, but I just haven't heard of it. If the ECU could just spit an aftermarket tune out, this would be some pretty advanced software calibration for a very old school engine.. so I doubt that's the case. More likely these companies are hardly changing anything as FrickenJag said, and there are holes in the tune that allow it to regress in certain situations. I agree that I have not been impressed with any companies offering a tune thus far, but I believe eventually someone will crack into the ECU further or offer a better product at some point as more cars are sold. I would never consider a piggy back, I don't like the idea of tricking my ECUs computer into thinking things are happening which aren't. There are too many areas for this to go wrong. I'd much rather spend $2k+ for a stand alone than $500 for a piggy back, its not worth the risk of blowing a $10k engine.

I'm just saying that I personally would like to see a full reflash developed rather than a piggy back system. Likely you don't have that capability, as certainly I don't, but that's what I would buy.

 

I've been working with a few companies that supply to the current tuner's out there. Per discussion thus far is I can possibly have full adjustment of the ECM, it's just a matter of manipulating the files and seeing what happens. From that one can figure out what is being adjusted. I'm hesitant to be a test dummy and blow a few motors which led me to working on the piggy back setup. I will follow this through in the future, the current investment on this end would prevent the other product options I'm working on, which I feel are much more needed for the the Jag market.

I know from tuning very similar engines in the past (Cobra M112 setups) the A/F alone with net good gains. A piggyback can be done safely as well. I'm sure there are poorly engineered items out there, but bare in mind Haltech and AEM have a wide variety of options in the piggy-back world and these are not cheap by any means.

I too have heard of the ECM dropping a file on the XKR side. Some ECM's have multiple tuning files, if one file notices a fault, it can default to a backup file. This is possibly what has happened with those setups.
With the use of a piggy back, this would not be the case. As you are still controlling the output to a certain degree.

Stohlen, to eliminate some of your concern with a piggyback setup I'll give more details. The logic setup would as so,
At WOT your A/F is defined from the Air Mass and not the O2. In closed loop the engine would be modifying the fuel map /timing based upon the 02. Since we are only focused on WOT tuning for power, we can solely focus on the Air Mass. The standard timing on these cars is pretty ideal already as long as we aren't concerned with optimizing race fuels etc.

Depending on how one sets up their tune, you can command a safe a/f that will gain power. The engines are quiet rich at WOT, and by calibrating the voltage out we can acquire a more ideal mixture for a supercharged engine.
The controller is solely dependent upon a trigger of a 3 Bar Map sensor. So the trigger can be set at 2,3,4,10,14 psi etc. At this particular boost level is when you are calibrating the ECM MAF reading. This can also be setup to any other sensor trigger, throttle etc. It's basically an If/then statement with fine-tune adjust-ability. In this case, when tuning with a good quality NTK O2 sensor , the result would be a dialed in A/F for WOT. I wouldn't foresee a software/hardware malfunction, the nice thing is even if so the default setting is a safe factory tune override.

I personally like the thought of being able to endlessly dial-in and tune my car for different conditions, elevations, etc. For the time and effort, this seemed like a good approach to that. Hopefully if all works well, we can reevaluate the cost vs benefit. I see it as a win for the money, but I'm certainly not always right

Let me know if you have any questions or thoughts. I should have data soon. I'm trying to wrap up the headers at the moment, then move towards testing and calibrating.

Regards,
Derek Fricke

 

Call me stubborn but I just don't like the idea of a piggy back. I realize they are usually safe if done in high quality. But not safe enough for my likings nor detailed enough to be worth it. I'm not interested in only having my vehicle partially tuned at WOT and nothing at 25/50/75% throttle. That doesn't make sense to me.

Keep working on your headers tho, that interests me and you're definitely doing it right.

 

Thanks for the encouragement. Believe me, I fully understand any hesitation. Imagine being the one to test this stuff on a car and take apart a car such as this. Certainly has me triple checking and quadruple checking as I go along.

If you desire to tune at other throttle % , the controller will enable that as well. I wasn't as concerned in those areas. I'll have to relate % throttle to boost pressure and see where it starts to kick in, I think some where around 3600 rpm. From there forward is what I'll be tuning and testing. I'll probably look into lower % throttle adjustments once I rework the cams.
This was where I was concerned with the ECM tunes, I could not locate accurate data from anyone on truly tuning the ECM. From what I gathered is it was a plug and play tune that has been downloaded from the XKR-S ECM. Hence the very similar outputs and A/F. Each engine is going to perform slightly different and potentially have different exhaust etc to tune for. It seemed as though, one could not adjust the tune to an A/F I desired for whatever vehicle.

Currently everything is setup to present good quality data to analyze, as I have a standalone DAQ unit to collect sensor data (Temp,Boost,Throttle, Vacuum,RPM, A/F) etc.
I'm working on having a Wideband as a safety net to trigger the unit off if a lean spike for whatever reason is to happen. I'll post some updated information soon with the collected data.

I should have results on the header design soon as well

Regards,
Derek Fricke

 

I've heard good things about Eurocharger, but I have experience with them. Fyi, this isn't a plug for them but it's the only company I've heard with a pulley and tune that seems legitamite

 

The fact that they are pushing a pulley change w/ tune on the V6, when every other knowledgeable source and other tuners are saying, "don't even think about going to a smaller pulley" is telling me they haven't done their homework.

The tune alone is probably an entirely different matter if done correctly, but only the base 340HP V6 really benefits.

 

Given that the restriction on the base V6 appears to be the ECU limiting throttle opening (70% has been mentioned elsewhere), there is considerable scope to boost the output at high rpm without risking the motor.

Pulley swaps work best in cold climates with high octane fuels, unless someone has an intercooler solution?

 

I think the key reasons that some people might prefer to go with the piggyback tune option are:

1. Undetectable. It doesn't remap the ECU tables so no evidence of a tune is left behind when you bring the car into the dealer. At least this is what I've been told in the past.
2. Reversible. To reverse the effect of the tune you just remove the biggypack device. You don't have to take the car back for a re-flash of the ECU (or do it yourself if you have equipment.)
3. Flexibility. You can adjust the parameters and limitations more easily with a piggyback tune as the ECU is overridden.

If I were to do this before the end of my factory warranty, I'd more than likely want to go with a piggyback tune for the first two reasons.

I don't necessarily plan to change the pulley in my car, but I wouldn't mind a good software tune to get me into the Project 7 or SVR power range. Which is itself just a tune on the same engine, so should be easily reproducible. Heck just removing the throttle opening limitations would be a good start, whether or not the A/F or other parameters were changed as well.

 

That's just an assumption. If Eurocharger is doing a full, proper ECU reflash and the others are only dinking around with A/F ratio its completely plausible that their setup is relatively safe. You can't say they didn't do their homework just because they claim a superior product. It could go either way.

 

This is a V6 issue, which is making a lot more HP per liter than the V8R. Moreover, you're talking about tunes, and I was focused upon the pulley change offered by one vendor. I'm certainly aware that a base V6 can be "safely" tuned because JLR offers it on an otherwise identical engine. The same can be said for the V8 engines.

Yes, it is an assumption based upon the preponderance of the evidence available, which isn't much. We have numerous, apparently, knowledgeable sources, including a JLR service manager and another reputable tuner (Rica), strongly warning against a pulley change on the V6, and we have one tuner who offers it. We also now have multiple reports of V6S engine melt-downs and fires in Germany after operating for extended periods at high rpms on the autobahn.

It's possible the company offering the pulley/tune pkg is the only company that knows what's going on, and that everyone else is wrong, but I don't like those odds until more is known.

 

I knew you were referring to the V6S. And your last statement is one I completely agree with.

That being said, I'd never consider a JLR service manager a knowledgeable source haha

 

LOL . . . that may be the case. But, I'd be more likely to trust him than I would the tuning community for JLR products, given what little info has been put out there. None of them have been very forthcoming with info. Perhaps that's because it's such a tiny market for them that they don't bother, but that also suggests they may not have done a lot of research.

We just don't know . . .

 

I meant to write that I don't have first hand experience with them above. I'm on my cell and I can't seem to edit.

I was speaking about the "R" tuning and pulley not the "S", I'm sorry if this thread was about the S.

 

Does anyone know why Eurocharged has a higher tune for the V6S if the only difference in the base engines is a tune to begin with?

 

They can claim anything they want to.

 

Wonder if theres a video of a tuned f type v6s or v8 (other than hennessy)