Performance Tune
#101
05-28-2016, 11:53 AM
Veteran Member
Well known provider and yes on the "completely undetectable." However, having since done some reading, all tunes are detectable. It appears OEM systems now review an ecu for all programming such that it compares notes to what the OEM home office has on record for each specific car via its VIN number . I should have done more homework and I own that. I wanted the performance so I am paying the price. I would like to just help others in their decision making.
BTW, as I also have the pulley change, I have three alternatives.
A - Keep factory tune with a rough idle and some flat spots,
B- replace the supercharger(I still have old pulley but since it is pressed on and the new pulley had to be installed with some honing of the pulley shaft, the OEM pulley is in my opinion a dangerous re-install
C- and the choice I am making is to reinstall the tune. The car runs marvelous with it. Just paying the price of stepping outside the lines. In hindsight, had I been a believer of what just happened to me, I would NOT have done the tune.
BTW, as I also have the pulley change, I have three alternatives.
A - Keep factory tune with a rough idle and some flat spots,
B- replace the supercharger(I still have old pulley but since it is pressed on and the new pulley had to be installed with some honing of the pulley shaft, the OEM pulley is in my opinion a dangerous re-install
C- and the choice I am making is to reinstall the tune. The car runs marvelous with it. Just paying the price of stepping outside the lines. In hindsight, had I been a believer of what just happened to me, I would NOT have done the tune.
Thanks again for sharing your experience such that everyone can be more informed.
Last edited by Foosh; 05-28-2016 at 01:36 PM.
#102
05-28-2016, 11:57 AM
Veteran Member
Since we have different ECU's, I'm not sure if this is an apples to apples take, but my dealer has hooked up my car numerous times and no such issues have ever surfaced.
Can't imagine it's competely "bricked" though. Get it sorted and put the tune back on the old one and reinstall. But then you'd have to reprogram keys, gauge cluster, etc. Tough situation, but I couldn't go back now that I have my tune and pulley. You should definitely get a reflash though. My tuner said they'd do it three times if it ever was overwritten from the dealer. Get in touch with the tuner and see what can be done. Did you email them a copy of your stock ECU file?
Can't imagine it's competely "bricked" though. Get it sorted and put the tune back on the old one and reinstall. But then you'd have to reprogram keys, gauge cluster, etc. Tough situation, but I couldn't go back now that I have my tune and pulley. You should definitely get a reflash though. My tuner said they'd do it three times if it ever was overwritten from the dealer. Get in touch with the tuner and see what can be done. Did you email them a copy of your stock ECU file?
#103
05-28-2016, 12:06 PM
Veteran Member
Since we have different ECU's, I'm not sure if this is an apples to apples take, but my dealer has hooked up my car numerous times and no such issues have ever surfaced.
Can't imagine it's competely "bricked" though. Get it sorted and put the tune back on the old one and reinstall. But then you'd have to reprogram keys, gauge cluster, etc. Tough situation, but I couldn't go back now that I have my tune and pulley. You should definitely get a reflash though. My tuner said they'd do it three times if it ever was overwritten from the dealer. Get in touch with the tuner and see what can be done. Did you email them a copy of your stock ECU file?
Can't imagine it's competely "bricked" though. Get it sorted and put the tune back on the old one and reinstall. But then you'd have to reprogram keys, gauge cluster, etc. Tough situation, but I couldn't go back now that I have my tune and pulley. You should definitely get a reflash though. My tuner said they'd do it three times if it ever was overwritten from the dealer. Get in touch with the tuner and see what can be done. Did you email them a copy of your stock ECU file?
#105
05-28-2016, 05:19 PM
Veteran Member
Well known provider and yes on the "completely undetectable." However, having since done some reading, all tunes are detectable. It appears OEM systems now review an ecu for all programming such that it compares notes to what the OEM home office has on record for each specific car via its VIN number . I should have done more homework and I own that. I wanted the performance so I am paying the price. I would like to just help others in their decision making.
BTW, as I also have the pulley change, I have three alternatives.
A - Keep factory tune with a rough idle and some flat spots,
B- replace the supercharger(I still have old pulley but since it is pressed on and the new pulley had to be installed with some honing of the pulley shaft, the OEM pulley is in my opinion a dangerous re-install
C- and the choice I am making is to reinstall the tune. The car runs marvelous with it. Just paying the price of stepping outside the lines. In hindsight, had I been a believer of what just happened to me, I would NOT have done the tune.
BTW, as I also have the pulley change, I have three alternatives.
A - Keep factory tune with a rough idle and some flat spots,
B- replace the supercharger(I still have old pulley but since it is pressed on and the new pulley had to be installed with some honing of the pulley shaft, the OEM pulley is in my opinion a dangerous re-install
C- and the choice I am making is to reinstall the tune. The car runs marvelous with it. Just paying the price of stepping outside the lines. In hindsight, had I been a believer of what just happened to me, I would NOT have done the tune.
You should try this as it will address your flat spots.
https://www.sprintboostersales.com/
#106
05-28-2016, 06:57 PM
Was the tune loaded into the ECU via the OBD-port? or did they remove the ECU from the car, open the case and flash directly to the chip?
If it was the latter then bricking the ECU while attempting to reflash it with SDD (dealers tool) is quite possible, in which case the incompetence is with the one who put in the tune, not the dealer tech!
If it was the latter then bricking the ECU while attempting to reflash it with SDD (dealers tool) is quite possible, in which case the incompetence is with the one who put in the tune, not the dealer tech!
#108
05-28-2016, 09:24 PM
Veteran Member
Was the tune loaded into the ECU via the OBD-port? or did they remove the ECU from the car, open the case and flash directly to the chip?
If it was the latter then bricking the ECU while attempting to reflash it with SDD (dealers tool) is quite possible, in which case the incompetence is with the one who put in the tune, not the dealer tech!
If it was the latter then bricking the ECU while attempting to reflash it with SDD (dealers tool) is quite possible, in which case the incompetence is with the one who put in the tune, not the dealer tech!
#109
05-28-2016, 09:39 PM
Thanks for clarifying. If the tune was flashed by OBD port then the chances of a corruption are less, but still possible.
When you flash an ECU on the bench directly to the processor you can put just about anything you want in there, without worrying about the little details like checksums, compatibility with SDD, etc...
Just to give you a real-life example that i came across recently. A friend of mine brought me his Land Rover to flash a custom file into the instrument cluster. After plugging in the car was throwing up a code for "odometer tampered" and it would not accept the custom file to be loaded by SDD, nor the original factory file. Kept throwing up checksum error.
Checking the hardware number of the instrument cluster it was for a later model, which has some minor hardware differences to the earlier one and uses a different file/firmware. I presume one of the gauges had stopped working so they fitted a 2nd hand cluster.
But what someone had done was read/copy the processor from the old cluster, and bench-flash the processor of the new cluster with the firmware from the old one. Despite there being some hardware incompatibilities from SDD's point of view, the cluster still "worked" but it would not communicate with SDD and therefore could not be flashed by me (or a dealer).
You can do the same thing with an engine ECU.
Just to give you a real-life example that i came across recently. A friend of mine brought me his Land Rover to flash a custom file into the instrument cluster. After plugging in the car was throwing up a code for "odometer tampered" and it would not accept the custom file to be loaded by SDD, nor the original factory file. Kept throwing up checksum error.
Checking the hardware number of the instrument cluster it was for a later model, which has some minor hardware differences to the earlier one and uses a different file/firmware. I presume one of the gauges had stopped working so they fitted a 2nd hand cluster.
But what someone had done was read/copy the processor from the old cluster, and bench-flash the processor of the new cluster with the firmware from the old one. Despite there being some hardware incompatibilities from SDD's point of view, the cluster still "worked" but it would not communicate with SDD and therefore could not be flashed by me (or a dealer).
You can do the same thing with an engine ECU.
#111
05-29-2016, 03:23 PM
This week my tune was busted. With that said, I am going back to the tune because I refuse at this point in life, to allow a manufacture to tell me how do "own" my car. My 2013 XFR was in for a guaqge pack replacement under warranty. While I have to believe what happened was a tech error which I was forced to eat, it happened never-the-less. The dealer claims that when they hook up to the OB2 plug, JLRNA's system uploads,downloads what ever the status of the car it reads. They claim that because conflicting software was detected(not the tune the factory expected to see) my ecu refused to receive any new programming from the factory.
The result was that my car sat unable to start in the dealership for five days. Many heated conversations occurred between myself and the dealership of which i have bought over 20 new LR and Jags since 2001. I suppose I was the heated one, they were very calm. ON day five, a Jag regional tech arrived to declare my ecu dead and not able to receive my new gauge pack programming much less start the car. He claims that due to conflicting software, the ecu went to lock down mode(anti-theft)> Most likely due to the tech continuing to send and resend reprogram commands, the ecu assumed someone was trying to hack the ecu.
Bingo, i had to spend 1200.00 for a new ecu and warranty was refused. I am by no means done. I am convinced there was incompetentence in how the techs handled my situation. In this world of technology, I will not accept that the ecu could not be set back to a virgin mode and thus completely re-programmed.
My warning is that any ecu logs programing changes and thus programs are detectable. I do not believe that simply hooking up the factory OB2 connector will throw an ecu into orbit. I think the tech in haste tried to errantly force fed my ecu until it fought back. Because the guage pack and keys all have to be reprogrammed at the same time, there were too many variables involved. Likely a short cut was tried and I became the victim of the program.
I of course retained my old ecu. i am in search of a person that that can resurrect my old ecu at which time i would like to have it installed back in my car to put this back on JLRNA for being unable to free up my ecu. Any and all recommendations are invited. You do not need to dump on me( I got what i asked for), my dealer for not standing by me(they did error likely in covering their techs butt), or JRLRNA for now. I just want to forensically figure out what really did happen. I am a student of life and I will learn from this experience. Maybe that i am wrong and this tune really did do the damage or that my dealership needs more training.
Thanks
The result was that my car sat unable to start in the dealership for five days. Many heated conversations occurred between myself and the dealership of which i have bought over 20 new LR and Jags since 2001. I suppose I was the heated one, they were very calm. ON day five, a Jag regional tech arrived to declare my ecu dead and not able to receive my new gauge pack programming much less start the car. He claims that due to conflicting software, the ecu went to lock down mode(anti-theft)> Most likely due to the tech continuing to send and resend reprogram commands, the ecu assumed someone was trying to hack the ecu.
Bingo, i had to spend 1200.00 for a new ecu and warranty was refused. I am by no means done. I am convinced there was incompetentence in how the techs handled my situation. In this world of technology, I will not accept that the ecu could not be set back to a virgin mode and thus completely re-programmed.
My warning is that any ecu logs programing changes and thus programs are detectable. I do not believe that simply hooking up the factory OB2 connector will throw an ecu into orbit. I think the tech in haste tried to errantly force fed my ecu until it fought back. Because the guage pack and keys all have to be reprogrammed at the same time, there were too many variables involved. Likely a short cut was tried and I became the victim of the program.
I of course retained my old ecu. i am in search of a person that that can resurrect my old ecu at which time i would like to have it installed back in my car to put this back on JLRNA for being unable to free up my ecu. Any and all recommendations are invited. You do not need to dump on me( I got what i asked for), my dealer for not standing by me(they did error likely in covering their techs butt), or JRLRNA for now. I just want to forensically figure out what really did happen. I am a student of life and I will learn from this experience. Maybe that i am wrong and this tune really did do the damage or that my dealership needs more training.
Thanks
When flashed as an existing module, it will already have a preset hex that is to be inserted into the processor. It's really like a cut and paste with the checksum corrected in the hex. There VCI/VCM/Mongoose or SDD doesn't do the checksum correction. Checksum is basically a hex equation.
Ex:
So if stock file is 1+2+3+4=10, and then have it tuned which changes hex and makes a new equation with same result if checksum 1+1+2+6=10. Now bring it back to the dealer and they do an update. The checksum in the dealer stock file was 1+2+3+4 so in theory 1+3+2+4 should =10. So they pre-update the hex in what they change but now because the file was tuned and then an update was done, our new hex equation is 1+3+2+6=14. When the PCM does a check, at the beginning of the file is the hex result to compare with the equation result. So pcm does check and see's result of 10 and then adds hex equation to see 14...pcm goes into brick mode and doesnt want to talk with anything for it believes it's internally corrupt.
To unbrick the module, reflash it with the previous file that was loaded with the correct checksum...this can be done with a Kess if the stock file is known. Or most common is with a Ktag which requires opening up the PCM.
When the dealer did the scan, they would of seen the software calibration fault, but this isn't enough evidence to say the PCM is tuned being a low voltage could trigger numerous faults when modules don't communicate. Just like an odometer has been tampered fault..not enough evidence unless modules do have conflicting mileage.
With JLR SDD the tech doesn't really do the diagnosis anymore.. The Symptom Driven Diagnostics is inputted the concern from the work order complaint by the tech and gives only what the tech needs to know, which is really stupid but when there's a huge amount of untrained ppl, makes things easier for the factory to control what's being done versus having a random tech flash every module 20 times in hopes the left front flasher bulb will stop showing a burnt message in the dash.(Stupid example but the basis of things).
Why the tech might of flashed the PCM? I don't know, maybe there was a recall open or in order for them to update X software in X module, they had to update the PCM file being it was an outdated file version. Or SDD updated a section of the PCM by default when doing a module update on another
I can't guarantee a result, but we can surely take the bricked pcm from you and see if we can bring it back to life for you..if it's works, then you could tune this ecu and have the one on your car as the stock file.
Or crash the idea entirely and use something like our hand held to put a tune into the new pcm and put back the stock file yourself when doing a dealer visit. The only thing is, if the dealer does an update, you can't load back the tune. You would have to do a fresh read and have a fresh tune file done..this way the checksum matches again on this new dealer loaded software.
#112
05-30-2016, 03:11 PM
Really insightful. Would switching pcm's back and forth effect miles on odometer? Meaning would the gauges continue to accumulate miles correctly as I do not want to create mileage discrepancies into the vehicle's history.
Secondly, what is involved in having a hand held which contains Oem and performance tune. Seems to be an easier approach and certainly common place amongst many other brands, so why not jag?? Really appreciate you taking up this post.
Secondly, what is involved in having a hand held which contains Oem and performance tune. Seems to be an easier approach and certainly common place amongst many other brands, so why not jag?? Really appreciate you taking up this post.
#113
05-30-2016, 03:35 PM
Really insightful. Would switching pcm's back and forth effect miles on odometer? Meaning would the gauges continue to accumulate miles correctly as I do not want to create mileage discrepancies into the vehicle's history.
Secondly, what is involved in having a hand held which contains Oem and performance tune. Seems to be an easier approach and certainly common place amongst many other brands, so why not jag?? Really appreciate you taking up this post.
Secondly, what is involved in having a hand held which contains Oem and performance tune. Seems to be an easier approach and certainly common place amongst many other brands, so why not jag?? Really appreciate you taking up this post.
So with that said, if you had 2 engine modules, the vehicle will always update to the highest mileage recorded in modules. So if unbrick that dead module and tuned it, then slapped it in in a years time..it would just update with the mileage currently in the instrument pack and body module.
With a hand held, it's the best route..I was just trying to give you use of the bricked pcm.
When one of our tunes is bought, we now give the option for the hand held unit for the client to keep (versus. Shipping a Kess on loan around). When the Vtech hand held arrives, the client plugs into the vehicle's OBD port and downloads the file. The Vtech keeps this file on the unit as the original software. Now the client send us the software downloaded by the Vtech. We edit the file and send back via email. Client loads the file to the Vtech and then uploads to vehicle via OBD port...pretty simple, no more loops.
So if tmr the dealer calls for a recall update, you can put back the stock file without the needs of chasing anyone down.
You can then load back the tuned file BUT ONLY IF THE DEALER DIDNT UPDATE THE ENGINE CONTROL MODULE. Sorry or the caps, just want ppl to be aware. This is all because of the checksum issue I mentioned earlier, if dealer does an update and you flash back the tune, you chance bricking the PCM . So what we recommend and we don't charge extra for if primary tune was bought from us...copy that file from the car with the vtech again, send it to us and we'll inform you if the file is safe to load or not. If the file needs to be updated, we'll transfer the changes to the new file and send it back via email..client then just follows previous steps mentioned and loads back to vehicle...again so special loops, just guide lines to follow so nothing gets damaged/bricked.
#114
06-02-2016, 08:55 PM
#115
06-01-2017, 11:53 PM
Somehow I missed this thread so i'm a bit late to the party.
We've been working on a V8S on & off the last few months. It's been very interesting, and a few nice surprises too.
Some bad news for you on the piggy back idea Derek.
This V8S was fitted with a RaceChip Ultimate piggy back unit Chiptuning for Jaguar F-Type 5.0 Kompressor ? RaceChip Chiptuning which claimed to take the 495PS/488HP/364kW/625Nm V8S to 608PS/600HP/447kW/762Nm.
No it doesn't.
Ran the car on the dyno, dead stock it made 414rwhp. So from 488HP that would be an approximate 15% drivetrain loss. Not bad.
The big surprise was the torque. Dyno said just under 500 lb-ft at the crank, or 677Nm. This is not the first 5.0L that made a big torque number like that. But it does make you wonder, is the 5.0L underrated for torque? Seems so...
Now for the RaceChip. They claim +23% in power & torque over stock. The reality is quite different. Peak numbers were just 420rwhp and 515 lb-ft. Which is a total flop. Yes if you look at the curves on the dyno sheet there is a gain mid-range, and this is noticeable behind the wheel. But the outright numbers, not even close to the claims given.
Dyno sheet:
Attachment 121124
Now it's important to understand why. How does the RaceChip work? It intercepts the MAP (before the S/C) and the TMAP (after the S/C) and tells the ECU that the manifold pressures are low. So the ECU "should" respond by allowing more boost, by allowing more throttle. But it doesn't work out that way.
The Bosch ECU is extremely complex and has some incredible failsafes built into it. If it detects an implausible measurement from a sensor, it will just ignore that input and use a different measurement to run the engine.
The ECU is programmed so there are "normal" values for MAF rate and MAP/TMAP signals, at a certain rpm, throttle input & load. If for example, the MAF rate is "out of spec" it get's ignored and the ECU runs the engine using the MAP/TMAP (like a MAFless or speed-density tune). Likewise if the MAP/TMAP is out of spec it's ignored and the engine runs off the MAFs instead.
So this RaceChip piggyback unit is most likely rendering the MAP/TMAP inputs useless, as the ECU will be ignoring them. So it's running off the MAF's instead, with the factory-defined fuelling/timing/throttle for MAF's only, which would explain why there is only a small difference in the actual power output.
You can actually unplug the MAF sensors and the engine will run just fine. The danger would be with a piggyback fooling the MAP/TMAP inputs the ECU is relying on a faked signal to run the engine.
This was not tested because the outcome is totally unpredictable. Worst case the engine could be subjected to maximum throttle with no torque limitation, which might make incredible power, but also result in a catastrophic failure of the engine or drivetrain. Who knows??!
It was very important to understand what this unit was doing, because we were going to flash the V8S with an R tune.
Now if you were to make a piggy back controller for these cars, it would have to override just about every sensor that goes to the ECU. I mean MAF's, MAP/TMAP, possibly also the O2 sensors. It'd be a very complex device and would be extremely difficult to set it up properly so the ECU doesn't ignore the measurements.
Can't help you with any first hand experience of these tune/pulley packages, sorry.
What we did with this V8S was load a slighly modified F-Type R tune to it.
Hopefully that car will be back to the dyno in the next few weeks and we'll have some numbers to talk about.
The transmission is strong. On paper it's rated to 700Nm/515lb-ft but in reality it's quite over-engineered. I would not worry about the transmission.
We've been working on a V8S on & off the last few months. It's been very interesting, and a few nice surprises too.
Some bad news for you on the piggy back idea Derek.
This V8S was fitted with a RaceChip Ultimate piggy back unit Chiptuning for Jaguar F-Type 5.0 Kompressor ? RaceChip Chiptuning which claimed to take the 495PS/488HP/364kW/625Nm V8S to 608PS/600HP/447kW/762Nm.
No it doesn't.
Ran the car on the dyno, dead stock it made 414rwhp. So from 488HP that would be an approximate 15% drivetrain loss. Not bad.
The big surprise was the torque. Dyno said just under 500 lb-ft at the crank, or 677Nm. This is not the first 5.0L that made a big torque number like that. But it does make you wonder, is the 5.0L underrated for torque? Seems so...
Now for the RaceChip. They claim +23% in power & torque over stock. The reality is quite different. Peak numbers were just 420rwhp and 515 lb-ft. Which is a total flop. Yes if you look at the curves on the dyno sheet there is a gain mid-range, and this is noticeable behind the wheel. But the outright numbers, not even close to the claims given.
Dyno sheet:
Attachment 121124
Now it's important to understand why. How does the RaceChip work? It intercepts the MAP (before the S/C) and the TMAP (after the S/C) and tells the ECU that the manifold pressures are low. So the ECU "should" respond by allowing more boost, by allowing more throttle. But it doesn't work out that way.
The Bosch ECU is extremely complex and has some incredible failsafes built into it. If it detects an implausible measurement from a sensor, it will just ignore that input and use a different measurement to run the engine.
The ECU is programmed so there are "normal" values for MAF rate and MAP/TMAP signals, at a certain rpm, throttle input & load. If for example, the MAF rate is "out of spec" it get's ignored and the ECU runs the engine using the MAP/TMAP (like a MAFless or speed-density tune). Likewise if the MAP/TMAP is out of spec it's ignored and the engine runs off the MAFs instead.
So this RaceChip piggyback unit is most likely rendering the MAP/TMAP inputs useless, as the ECU will be ignoring them. So it's running off the MAF's instead, with the factory-defined fuelling/timing/throttle for MAF's only, which would explain why there is only a small difference in the actual power output.
You can actually unplug the MAF sensors and the engine will run just fine. The danger would be with a piggyback fooling the MAP/TMAP inputs the ECU is relying on a faked signal to run the engine.
This was not tested because the outcome is totally unpredictable. Worst case the engine could be subjected to maximum throttle with no torque limitation, which might make incredible power, but also result in a catastrophic failure of the engine or drivetrain. Who knows??!
It was very important to understand what this unit was doing, because we were going to flash the V8S with an R tune.
Now if you were to make a piggy back controller for these cars, it would have to override just about every sensor that goes to the ECU. I mean MAF's, MAP/TMAP, possibly also the O2 sensors. It'd be a very complex device and would be extremely difficult to set it up properly so the ECU doesn't ignore the measurements.
Can't help you with any first hand experience of these tune/pulley packages, sorry.
What we did with this V8S was load a slighly modified F-Type R tune to it.
Hopefully that car will be back to the dyno in the next few weeks and we'll have some numbers to talk about.
The transmission is strong. On paper it's rated to 700Nm/515lb-ft but in reality it's quite over-engineered. I would not worry about the transmission.
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Danny
#116
06-02-2017, 01:47 AM
Glad I came across this old thread. I recently spoke with the guys at racechip and they were telling me that once I buy it, there are changes that I can make that will increase the performance (HP) of the car more than what they send the ultimate box set at. Based on your quote, you think that is still impossible, yes? I have read posts of satisfied users on BMW and Merc forums, but no one with a jag.
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Danny
Thanks in advance for your reply.
Danny
Frankly speaking, these ECU's are far more complex than most people realise, and fooling the MAP sensors is not an ideal way to go about finding HP, I would not go down the racechip path on my own car, when there are other proven (and understood) tunes out there.
Last edited by Cambo; 11-11-2017 at 03:38 AM.
#117
06-02-2017, 04:31 PM
#118
06-03-2017, 02:39 PM
Veteran Member
What makes it complex is that the ECU is using an expected airflow /map vacuum/boost value compared to throttle opening/ engine rpm to validate all is ok. Alteration of any of these values causes the ECU to think things are wrong, so that makes it very difficult to make an additional ECU to fool the original Jaguar ECU. Its so much easier to tune the original then.
#119
06-05-2017, 11:00 AM
Sponsor
I would bet the house on dash lit up like a Christmas tree, car probably in limp mode and a whole lot of throttle and overboost codes!
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VelocityAP Industries Ltd.
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Stuart Dickinson
Managing Director
VelocityAP Industries Ltd.
O: (1)250-485-5126
E: Stuart@VelocityAP.com
www.velocityap.com
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