As a collector the more that are driven into the ground the better. I am a firm believer in driving your cars. However in saying that, my XJ12's mostly sit. Patiently waiting for the day I have some of the only few nice ones left. Then I sell. That day is some years/decades off yet. Must keep my Zen attitude. Although changing out one of the power steering pumps today certainly tested my attitude.

 

Well this is just flat out inaccurate. It's a picture painted with far too broad of a brush. Both you and that Queen guy always come down on engine tuning but I feel like neither of you really understand it very well. You both put Jaguar engineers on a holy pedestal seemingly no one else can touch. I don't get it.

Jaguar left plenty on the table with these engines and there is absolutely nothing wrong with unlocking that. They do it themselves and charge outrageous premiums for it. Look at the difference between the XF and XFR. Or the V8S and V8R. Exact same engine, transmission, suspension etc just different engine tunes.

 

+1

 

Unhingd turned his V6 into a monster. Thing is, his car won't survive 5 years of using that power on the track - it will need new pistons, cams, new supercharger, new synchros , new driveshaft... because he took many components past designed tolerances. He is taking well-informed risks, but his car can throw a rod tomorrow and be out of luck on warranty. Longer the car stays on the road like that, greater is the risk of failure. It won't make it on original engine long enough to become collectable classic.

----

F-type is a halo car in a highly-competitive segment, it is also a product of serious R&D budget and career engineers looking to deliver best possible product. If it could be done, it would have been. On a fundamental level I disagree that F-type could be improved without serious trade-offs.

One type of feasible improvement is about skirting on emissions, for example by installing high-flow (but inadequate) catalytic converters. This isn't something JLR engineers could do as it would be illegal.

Another type of improvement is buying performance at a cost of reliability. This is where supercharger pulleys upgrades and tunes coming from. If it came out of factory like that, people would be screaming about reliability and for a good reason.

Another type of compromise is cost, with enough money you can make anything go faster. If you are willing to spend $$$ you can probably find or manufacture parts that were deemed too costly to put on F-type. Good example is SVR's titanium exhaust. You can also probably do headers, flywheel. I think you could easily spend $50K and not get more than 50HP. This is probably where most people stop.

Last but not least - you can lighten up the car by sacrificing creature comforts. So if you are willing to sit in an empty shell, it will go faster. Only the hardcore racers will do this, and if you are one - there are better 'values' out there (F-type is too expensive to be turned into pure racer).

With this in mind, I still stand by my original point.

 

I agree that there are usually tradeoffs, but I don't think they are all "serious".

For example:

* The base and S F-Types have the same engine but different ECU maps, so upgrading the base ECU to the S incurs little tradeoff and provides significant power gain (+40hp)

* Reducing exhaust baffling or cat load may make the car loud or fail to pass environmental tests, but it actually *decreases* the stress on the engine. So owners doing this can choose whether they want to increase engine lifespan or utilize the additional performance.

I respect owners who want to steward a car for the next generation. But it's also pretty cool to have owners in the community who want to push the car to its limits and beyond.
The community is richer for that diversity, and it's pretty hard to argue that one approach involves a deeper respect or appreciation for the car than the other.

 

I've already located a spare block...just in case... Next step, finding the limit of the 8HP transmission. There's a place in Australia putting 1240nm (914 ft lbs) through it reliably!!

 

This is so laughable it's actually beyond belief that you're serious. Honestly, I read and reread your post and can't stop cracking up. I think my favorite part was him needing new camshafts and synchros in 5 years. Are you a ghost writer for the Fast and Furious movie franchise? It's one thing to not prefer modded cars over factory cars. It's a whole different thing to flat out lie about them.

Your statement of "if it could be done, it would have been done" instantly kills both your credibility and sanity. To say that any manufacture builds a car as well as it COULD be built is just asinine.

 

We all don't get flashed,, and one reason only. The fact that it allows JLR to weasel out of a warranty claim whether its directly related to the mod or not. Thats it and thats all.

In my case its certainly not because I fear excessive wear. I know for a fact that all manufacturers under develop their cars intentionally for a variety of reasons, including safety. As stated earlier you don't have to look any further than an F-R > F-SVR. There is a prime example of simply a flash unleashing power within being held back intentionally. Your logic would dictate that a base F would be more collectable than an SVR 30 years down the road because it was probably not driven as hard. Why is a 427 '67 Vette worth 5 times what a 327 is worth?

Just wait a few years when our cars start coming off warranty, you'll see such a spike in mods your head will spin.

 

To that point I just watched Chris Harris on Cars. He was driving the new Ferrari California T. They actually detuned the motor to make the lineup work better for the 488. So no, they don't always give us everything they could. And they often hold it back for future updates to sell more cars, in addition to the "specials" which they charge a lot more money for.

 

When you are done frothing, perhaps you could explain why you mistakenly believe me to be wrong?

One typical tuner tricks is to up the red line by anywhere from 250 to 500 rpm. If you actually end up using this (why else tune?), then you put more stress on your cam and valve lifters. Older the engine, riskier it is to increase the limit. In extreme cases and reckless tunes, you can end up hitting valves with your pistons, damaging the engine. Some people do this to older Mustangs and race them until they blow up. To properly increase the redline you have to install flywheel, pistons, and valves that can take it. How many do you think have done this?

Synchros wear and tear is all about consequence of increasing peak torque. I know most Jag owners, including you, get driven by an automatic gearbox. Few of us that still row our own gears have to content with the fact that even the best driver now and then mismatches revs. This is when your tuned car could grind your transmission and twist off your driveshaft, because increased torque requires transmission that can take it, driveshaft that can deliver it, differential that can take it, and all mounting points and cradles that can handle mis-shifts and take-offs that inevitably going to happen. How many people that mod take any of this into consideration?

 

Yes, this is one exception to this. It also applies to base F-type (which shares engine with V6S). Considering it a toggle on dealership's tool, this isn't much of a 'tune'.

When I spoke about tuning, I had 'gain 1 million HPs with this remote tuning app' in mind. You can gain some HP with a dyno, but it is a) risky (premature component failure) b) requires other mods to provide noticeable gains c) requires deep subject-matter expertise, as it can be done wrong in a lot more ways than right and you can't tell which one you got until something blows up or throws a code.

 

You misunderstood me. A better example would be as follows: unmolested R will be collectable, while one that had mods on it and was tuned to run as SVR will not be. In 30 years, unmolested base F-type will be more collectable than heavily modded SVR.

I am not telling anyone what to do (but I do have my opinions), but the moment you mod the car it stops being collectable.

 

Unfortunately a collector will not want mine as I actually drive it.

 

Not necessarily. In general modified cars will become less valuable but not always. Some modified cars actually become more desirable. Two things can influence that. 1) Cars that are modified by rather famous tuners and builders as opposed to an amateur in his home garage are often sought after. 2) Fifty years on, very rare, very popular and race-proven vintage aftermarket accessories can sometimes add to the value. These thing kind of have to be documented in the media for their value to persist. There is risk however. Today's tuner or builder may be forgotten or copied and aftermarket parts may not last and be impossible to repair or replace when they break. It is certainly a safer investment to leave your car stock if its a high return you are seeking.

 

I do not froth when I laugh and all I'm doing is laughing. You're hilarious. Also, I have no interest in explaining to you why are you mistaken just like you have no interest in actually listening. Know one thing, I'm not responding to you in hopes of changing your already made up mind or knocking you off your purist high horse. A waste of time that would be.

I only respond so that hopefully, the hundreds of other people reading this thread, will not read what you've said and take it seriously.

Again, way too broad of a brush you're painting with here. The auction block is proof enough that the right mods and or the right tuning house can actually increase the value as a collector. Baldwin Motion, Mickies, Yenko, Shelby etc are well known examples of that. Cars that were modded and now command outrageous premiums because of it. A few modern examples are Hennessy, Lingenfelter, Roush and Saleen. All of these are modded cars that are very much collectable.

Look, we get it. You thing tuning is bad. Even though your beloved manufactures do the same thing (you even can't bring yourself to call it a tune when it most definitely is) and charge crazy premiums for it. The problem with your stance is that you are putting every single tuner on the same chopping block as the snake oil guys. Not fair or accurate.

People reading this, please do not listen to this man when it comes to this topic. Do your own research and make your own choice.

 

Sure, there are reputable tuners out there that delivered results on F-type. None, to best of my knowledge, are 'famous' for anything notable to make their tunes collectable.

If you decided that preserving collectable status of your F-type is not important and you want to tune, please ASK FOR A RECOMMENDATION, otherwise you are more likely than not to end up wasting money and possibly creating problems for yourself.

Overwhelming majority of the tuners who actively advertise, even on this forum, are snake oil guys. Of legitimate tuners that exist, most won't know how to work on F-type, and yours will be the first one they see.

 

Remember that most of the now famous tuning houses where otherwise obscure and one of many before one thing led to another and they became famous. Shelby was just a guy with a small shop that wanted to race and opportunity met preparation. The list goes on.

Shops like Eurocharged and others likely won't have the luxury of factory sponsorship like famous tuners of old but they are well known and respected by this current, young generation of car enthusiast. What you have to understand is that your generation is a fading out as it gets older. The seniors are the ones who control the collector car market because they are the ones with the most time and money to invest.

They also have the memories. The memories of what was cool when they were young. What was fast, what was cool and what they wanted but couldn't afford or wish they never sold. That's one of the biggest factors that drives the collector market.

What happens when the guys who drove 69 camaro's in high school so are now willing to pay 65k for one now are all gone? We are right now lucky enough to be alive during what is arguably the greatest hp war ever waiged and are currently able to drive what will no doubt be the next old school classics. And while yes, a low mileage, factory stock car is likely the safest bet, it's just not accurate to say that those are the only ones that will be collectible.

This current generation loves modification in all things. Phones, computers, cloths, cars, music you name it. I don't see them turning their nose up in 50 years at a great condition F-Type thats been upgraded with period correct go fast parts. The game is changing. Look at cars from the 80's and how they have skyrocketed lately. A 308 used to be a 30k car all day at best. Now double at least. A countach for 700k? They were awful cars, no way. But yes, now that is no longer crazy.

Modern cars from shops like underground racing and AMS command a premium over their stock counterparts and will continue to do so. Likely becoming the next tuner collector powerhouses. Baldwin motion was just a guy who wanted to make some outrageous cars and now look! Ok, I'm done lol.

 

I think your mods are interesting, and I can 100% understand the appeal of getting 10s car. While I prefer time attack track; the noise, the sound and most importantly acceleration one a drag strip is not lost on me.

I understand manual transmission and how and why it fails fairly well, but I have no clear idea how automatic fails in these types of applications. I think clutch disks get damaged and probably drive gear stripped, but would be interested in hearing HOW you think it will go.

 

BUT THAT'S THE POINT! And to flaunt this, I will also say something else....

the collector talk seems a bit elitist to me. There will always be collector cars, and Pebble Beach this weekend proves it. I plan to have this car forever, just like my 20 yrs of YJ Wrangler. Never gonna give you up. BUT, I might add some cars to the stable. Now all that being said, my thought is this.... *if* I were to sell this....

I bought a car to love and hug. I will drive at my leisure, daily, but then I will pass it on to someone who could NEVER afford this car. Someone that loves cars, loves manuals, and will be thrilled to get a 100K F-Type at a steal.

And then, I will buy a new one. Or two. Or that BMW 8 series that looks like a shark (to me) and one of these and an F-Pace. And an old Bentley from the 40's.

But there will always be collector cars because a certain % of production was assumed to be driven and used, and unless it's a 1 of 2000 type vehicle, the collectibles will become collectibles, while these end up somewhere else.

But I didn't mean to resurrect this thread with any malice, so I will end with a bit of sarcasm....

I can't wait to buy collectible cars from collectors and then freak them out by really driving them. =) Like this guy that off-roads his 50's Porsche....

My God, This Guy Off-Roads His 1950s Porsche

 

I personally don't subscribe to 'low miles', and all my classic cars are driven, often hard. I used to be that 'someone' in your post. I also keenly remember looking for parts to undo this or that ill-fated mod to get the car running again. That how I ended up being militant purist - I was on the other end and got skinned knuckles to show for it.

I would never ever suggest to someone to not drive their cars. Just don't mod them. Every time I see a formally nice car in the junk yard that was full-body wrapped, lowered, fitted with K&N filter I get sad - if not for these mods (and neglect) it could have still be on the road.