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Its really not "speculation" that 300 pounds of lift/downforce causes significant drag. Its easy to calclute since its a flat plate airfoil cross section. But we dont need to measure angles and speeds to conclude its a big time waste of substantial drag.
Its bizarre that "engineers" will throw a paperclip overboard to save weight (or charge $1500 to make it from carbon fiber) then slap a fake wing on the tail. I dont hate the look, but lets face the fact thats its a performance joke.
Let’s remember that you completely made up the 300 pound number. You should also note that drag via downforce is much different than drag via lift reduction. A spoiler is inheritantly not in the main airstream unlike a wing, and is installed to alter the airstream location, not use it to force down the car.
I have read quite a few threads where you, V8S, have promoted "Sprint Master" most of which have been terminated by a moderator.
I do not understand why you have a Jaguar when you appear, at least to me, to hate it?
Quote from another thread by V8S: "Hmmm. A quick scan of autotrader shows the average price of a good 2016 V6S 6MT is around $10K less than a good 2016 V6S AWD and at rough parity with the 2016 V6S RWD.
Doesn't mean it'll stay that way, but times change. Only about 5% of sports cars today are MTs because they don't move. It used to be MTs were the same or quicker, but in today's numbers are king world, they really can't keep pace. Plus paddles and multimodes and DCs all make ATs pretty controllable and fun, and a lot faster.
That said, having bought my first automatic sports car with this V8S in many decades of sports car ownership, I do not like it.
The daily driving experience is fun and fast enough, but there are so many critical safety related design flaws:
1. It will SLAM into park if your passenger grazes the top button at low speed (tested), I was going 4 mph and it was violent.
2. I find myself using the S mode stick during turns while the paddles are turning, but there isn't enough stick offset to feel a definitive difference in Drive without looking at the dash or stick, so it's easy to shift into N at a terrible time.
3. The brake peddle requirement is annoying and becomes a critical safety hazard after #2.
4. Relentless transmission faults occur with a simple low battery. Massive safety hazard.
Its generally a bad design from a safety perspective. I'm surprised Jag designers are such amateurs in basic ergo. Any AT that requires a passenger safety brief is a FAIL in my book.
I wish there was an 8MT option, but they aren't listening to their customers".
Let’s remember that you completely made up the 300 pound number. You should also note that drag via downforce is much different than drag via lift reduction. A spoiler is inheritantly not in the main airstream unlike a wing, and is installed to alter the airstream location, not use it to force down the car.
Lets make a deal: If I link an official Jaguar source citing the F-Type's downforce at "up to 300 pounds" then you never reply to anything I post directly or indirectly, again. Deal?
I have read quite a few threads where you, V8S, have promoted "Sprint Master" most of which have been terminated by a moderator.
I do not understand why you have a Jaguar when you appear, at least to me, to hate it?
Quote from another thread by V8S: "Hmmm. A quick scan of autotrader shows the average price of a good 2016 V6S 6MT is around $10K less than a good 2016 V6S AWD and at rough parity with the 2016 V6S RWD.
Doesn't mean it'll stay that way, but times change. Only about 5% of sports cars today are MTs because they don't move. It used to be MTs were the same or quicker, but in today's numbers are king world, they really can't keep pace. Plus paddles and multimodes and DCs all make ATs pretty controllable and fun, and a lot faster.
That said, having bought my first automatic sports car with this V8S in many decades of sports car ownership, I do not like it.
The daily driving experience is fun and fast enough, but there are so many critical safety related design flaws:
1. It will SLAM into park if your passenger grazes the top button at low speed (tested), I was going 4 mph and it was violent.
2. I find myself using the S mode stick during turns while the paddles are turning, but there isn't enough stick offset to feel a definitive difference in Drive without looking at the dash or stick, so it's easy to shift into N at a terrible time.
3. The brake peddle requirement is annoying and becomes a critical safety hazard after #2.
4. Relentless transmission faults occur with a simple low battery. Massive safety hazard.
Its generally a bad design from a safety perspective. I'm surprised Jag designers are such amateurs in basic ergo. Any AT that requires a passenger safety brief is a FAIL in my book.
I wish there was an 8MT option, but they aren't listening to their customers".
Originally Posted by Stohlen
Let’s remember that you completely made up the 300 pound number. You should also note that drag via downforce is much different than drag via lift reduction. A spoiler is inheritantly not in the main airstream unlike a wing, and is installed to alter the airstream location, not use it to force down the car.
Originally Posted by V8S
Lets make a deal: If I link an official Jaguar source citing the F-Type's downforce at "up to 300 pounds" then you never reply to anything I post directly or indirectly, again. Deal?
If it notes lift reduction instead of downforce, will you take time to understand the difference and stop spewing ignorance?
(I have original literature for the V8S and just looked at what it says.)
If it notes lift reduction instead of downforce, will you take time to understand the difference and stop spewing ignorance?
(I have original literature for the V8S and just looked at what it says.)
Jag's word is "downforce."
Are you always this consumed by meaningless bickering? The point is, its a purely phallic performance detractor.
If you like the auto wing, keep it stock. No need for you to ankle bite every word of conversation between those who prefer performance. Your sole purpose here is to be annoying, so kindly unsubscribe from this thread.
For the precise, the F-Type convertible has a rear "wing." I have not looked closely at the coupes smaller wing in deploy mode to see if there is a sealed front hinge.
Spoilers are hinged or permanently attached at the front, an inverted split flap, wings are fully inserted into the air stream so air travels around it from leading edge through chord to trailing edge, and thus they have an airfoil cross section and an AOA (flat is a cataloged, symetrical, lift producing airfoil).
"Downforce" has become an accepted auto industry term, but negative AOA (average chord line vs. relative wind) produces "negative lift" when any negative alpha is plugged into the Lift equation. Just like every conventional aircraft elevator in stabilized unaccelerated flight.
Are you always this consumed by meaningless bickering? The point is, its a purely phallic performance detractor.
If you like the auto wing, keep it stock. No need for you to ankle bite every word of conversation between those who prefer performance. Your sole purpose here is to be annoying, so kindly unsubscribe from this thread.
To the topic, if I wanted to disable it and were an EE, I would design something that mimics the response of the mechanism so the electronics think it's alive and well. I'm not an EE, and while I find it reduces rear visibility it's not bothersome enough to prompt action. Similar simulators are available for things like lambda sensors. If the signal is on/off, rather than an analog value, it doesn't seem like it would be that difficult. That would prevent the warning lights.
If you want to disable it, go ahead. It's your car. I recommend understanding it before modifying it, and your comments are not indicative of understanding. Disabling it with a clear understanding of what you gain and what you lose, proper accommodations can be made is perfectly reasonable, e.g. "I'll never go over 100, so high-speed instability isn't an issue for me." On the other hand, something like "it'll help my 0-60 time" is asinine.
If you're going to be pedantic (and wrong) expect that someone else pedantic will correct you. Using incorrect information to support your contentions does a disservice to everyone here. Someone might actually believe you, and that would be unfortunate.
I found the exact number from Jaguar's V8S F-type launch: "rear wing privides 264 pounds of downforce."
I could measure the AOA and derive the pounds of drag but there is no need, its a lot. A couple hundred pounds of rearward tug is worth disabling during extended cruise or street racing.
No doubt they auto deployed it at 60mph to avoid impacting the V6S and V8S headline metrics.
Are you always this consumed by meaningless bickering? The point is, its a purely phallic performance detractor.
If you like the auto wing, keep it stock. No need for you to ankle bite every word of conversation between those who prefer performance. Your sole purpose here is to be annoying, so kindly unsubscribe from this thread.
Jag's word for it is indeed downforce, but in actuality the spoiler is reducing up to 300 pounds of lift (created by the Bernoulli effect) across the roofline at 186 mph. Spoiling the laminar flow at the back of the vehicle (and the resulting Bernoulli effect) actually decreases the horizontal drag forces at the back of the car.
Jag's word for it is indeed downforce, but in actuality the spoiler is reducing up to 300 pounds of lift (created by the Bernoulli effect) across the roofline at 186 mph. Spoiling the laminar flow at the back of the vehicle (and the resulting Bernoulli effect) actually decreases the horizontal drag forces at the back of the car.
Its a deployable wing, the leading edge is exposed. There is NO possible way to classify our wings as spoilers, spoilers have an attached leading edge.
07-29-2018, 10:36 AM
