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Robtrt8 already did freq testing in this thread showing full range to doors already. Thanks for that Robtrt8
Jaguar or meridian really did mess up this install for the f type so it doesn't surprise me that they haven't bothered with full purpose tailored cross over settings.
I suspect they set the car up with the lowest common denominator - the base 180w setting which doesn't have rear subs as far as I know so ,full range to the doors.
Then sloppily just piggybacked the rear sub onto the system for the 380,770w systems just so they could say that it had more speakers without changing or adjusting the distribution for the new speaker compliment. End result is it looks better on paper and in the brochures but in real life a dog's breakfast
Robtrt8 already did freq testing in this thread showing full range to doors already. Thanks for that Robtrt8
I thought he didn't know anything about the x-over points or slopes? So for example door woofers could be still getting SOME signal at 30hz but it's rolled off 12/18/24db per octave from the x-over pint - maybe 70HZ. Is that still sufficient for feeding a DSP to sum the signal and it will match all of the levels - as long as there isn't a hard cut 100% eliminating some portion of the low end? Do we know that there isn't a sub-sonic filter in there that you might not want if running a good 12" sub? I've swapped in CDT HD-6v2 for the door woofers and they don't seem to break up at all. I'm not saying the output is great at 50Hz but I'd think they would suffer pretty badly if treated like a sub with no low end cut playing in free air in the doors on relatively low power.
Tore apart the rear bits, again. I'm getting pretty good at this.
Referred back to my own wiring list and pulled the blue plug from the factory amp. Routed the center channel to the DSP and back from the PDX amp.
Got back into the DSP App and balanced the center driver with the two door mids.
Staging is really nice, sounds like the music is coming from the hood. Using the center driver and the Dolby tune for EQ and time alignment, it's now a two seat tune.
Next thing is replacing the door drivers.
While the existing drivers sound great at what most people would consider "normal" listening volumes, they just aren't happy being pushed hard.
This is my sub input from one of the factory amp high level sub outputs while playing uncorrelated pink noise from the Rockford Fosgate 3 Sixty tuning disk.
This is my mid bass input from the factory amp's mid bass output. You can see it is playing down to 25Hz but not with the same intensity as the sub.
Extended and ran the mid bass leads back into the door cavity.
Made an adapter plate out of 3/16 ABS. VHB tape reinforces bond to the door and butyl ribbon reinforces driver to ABS.
Fast Ring seals front wave to door trim.
Cut the existing mid speaker to make a mounting bracket for the AudioFrog GB25's.
The GB25's are deeper than the existing mids which turned out to be a problem putting the door trims back on. I wound up having to die grind a hole in the plastic cavity that separates the inner door from the area under the trim.
Needed to acoustically seal that from the mid bass so this was my solution.
Backside of GB10's. This is the passenger side I did first using the provided mounting hardware. The drivers side I just friction fit without the spring and bracket.
While AudioFrog tweeters do come with an amazing array of mounting options, they are freaking huge. I'm going to have to come up with another solution.
I did the passenger side first. Took about 4 hours to template the existing mid bass and make the ABS adapters, extend wiring, modify the existing mid, modify the existing tweeter location, mount the new drivers and modify the existing door to have the trim go back on. Drivers side took about 2 hours.
After a bit of research, I found that the Hertz Mille Legends wouldn't be any better as far as mounting went as they were essentially the same depth.
I think the ideal replacement driver set would be the Morel Elate Carbon 63A's. https://www.crutchfield.com/p_210EC6...3A.html?tp=105
I'm working on the boss to see if we can get Morel's into the store. What the heck, he just got Audiotec-Fischer so he could get Helix. I will probably switch DSP's when I get a chance.
I've had very little time to play with the DSP's tune with the new drivers but overall, the sound is much better. Details are better pronounced, tone is more laid back, not as harsh.
I did make one change that had a huge impact. I switched the input on the DSP for the sub output from the factory sub input to the factory mid bass input. The sound is less one dimensional.
I still need to replace the center driver and that will help a bunch.
Playing around with the DSP, I set up a tune where I muted the little mids, adjusted the crossovers on the tweets and mid bass to cover the missing range and A/B'd it.
My goal was to see if the tradeoff of having a two way instead of a three way was worth it.
The benefit is the mids are produced from drivers mounted further forward.
I liked the result so I took the GB25's out of the door and repaired the hole with some CLD tile. Figured while I was there I'd apply a little to some of the flat surfaces.
Looking at other stereo threads I saw that the center channel driver is a co-ax with a tweeter. Pointed right at the windshield.
Yeah, that's got to go.
Getting the center vent out is no joke but modifying the center driver to take the GB25 was easy. And it fit without having to modify anything for depth!
Now that I had two channels of amplification available, I hooked up the GS8's behind the seats.
My thought was, if they only played non-localizable mid bass, maybe the hat shelf wouldn't resonate too much. Still have the GB12 hooked up.
This basically reproduces the system I had in a 328xi with a tweet and mid in the door, as far forward as possible, an 8" mid bass under the front seats and a sub in the way-back.
That system had Morel tweeters and GB40's in the door, Jehnerts under the seats and a Morel Primo in the trunk. And about 300 less HP under the hood.
At this point, I'm happy enough with the build that I can start playing with the RTA.
I'm still trying to figure out how I can make the GB10's look nice. I may have to break down and buy some MT300's.
What's the trick to getting the center vent out? I've got the grill off but there is some structure obscuring one of the mounting screws for the speaker. The other two are pretty tight with the windshield but a stubby driver should be able to get to them.
With all the time and expense of your high end system how come you haven't dynamatted the doors more extensively ??
Best bang for buck sound improvement you can do
1) Pop the fancy trim panel off just above the screen/in front of the vents. It needs to come off straight up (from it's perspective), not one edge first. And it is well secured, it wont come easy. Don't scratch the leather on the vent or sides or the screen bezel. (Yeah, right) I used a nylon bone tool but IF I have to do that again, I might try a pick hook all around the edge.
2) Pop the speaker grill off.
3) There are two fasteners in front of the vents, two in front of the speaker and two behind the speaker. (You can see them through the windscreen.) That trim piece that holds the headlight sensor needs to be popped loose where it covers the vent's hinges.
4) I raised the vent at this point and then lifted the front edge up to access the plug. Unplug the vent. Pull the whole thing up in front and forward, out from under the trim covering the hinge. (Calling the vents the front.)
5) I used a T20 1/4 bit with a handle. Having the bit magnetized helps a great deal.
6) Installation, slide the hinge edge under that loose trim bit and settle them both down together, then lower the front edge.
Dynamat.
I guess I have a different philosophy on that stuff, based on personal experience, things I've read on DIYMA, and the information from this system: https://www.secondskinaudio.com/
Also realize, this project is very much a work in progress. I'm experimenting with different solutions to try and get the best possible sound, not just replicate the existing system only better.
Is resonance a problem. Yes, but there are other ways to address this problem besides slathering butyl sheets on every surface.
Is the F Type the quietest cabin in the world? No, the noise coming off the rear PS 4S's are enough to drive me to drink. The final sub box design will allow me to put the parcel cover back in. I hope.
The 328xi we traded in for the FT had a phenomenal system, great tone, details, dynamic range and not a stich of sound deadening. Didn't need it because there was no bass being played in the doors.
I'm still playing with the DSP to decide whether it sounds better with the 150hz to 70hz coming from the doors or behind the seats.
Heck, I may even switch GB40's for the GB60's.
I'm also waiting on the box design from Pete so I can get to building.
When I get the locations for the drivers locked down, then I'll address the resonance.
Couple of other things worth mentioning.
Do I work for a shop? Yes I do.
Do I spend every day doing high end car stereo's? Nope. Yesterday I changed a starter on a 4.3 Merc and a tilt motor on a 115 Merc and helped the shop owner with a bunch of stuff on 5 other boats.
I have install sound systems on 2 ski boats, 5 pontoon boats and helped on 4 pickup trucks this spring, so far.
Did Chris and I talk about car stereo and the upcoming open house/car show all day? Oh yeah. https://www.bentleyselectronics.com/...28ca217146.pdf
He had a shop in Baton Rouge and competed in SPL in the 90's.
I did my 1st "system" when I installed a Pioneer KP500 and a pair of Jensen Co-ax's in my '73 Super Beatle. In 1976.
I've had DIY systems in every car since but never had the chance to work in audio professionally. Until now.
The "store" part of the business is new and very much aspirational.
I know this thing will pound but gee, seems a little big.
Shower thought of the day. If I only do a two way door and no rear 8's I only need a purpose built 6 channel amp with a dedicated center channel and an all powerful sub channel. OH! I got one of those.
The famous or infamous Zuki 6 channel. This is by far the best sounding amp I've ever heard. And yes, you can hear the difference.
It will require a bit of a remodel to get it to fit.
After taking out the huge sub box, which did play nice and low, I tried again to hook up the two 8's behind the seat. Just to see if they had any chance. No way in heck I was going to be able to keep all that plastic trim quiet. Not for the kind of bass I want.
Had another sub driver to try. Used to have this in the Volvo before I went with double 12's. Rainbow Vanadium 10". Looked up the sealed box requirements and built the box holding for width (same as that little umbrella shelf), height needed to install driver and keep it below the package cover and depth, whatever was needed to meet correct volume. This driver digs deep, for a 10, and has great mid bass. Thought about putting it in the spare tire well like Jag Bass has done but it needs too much air and I need amp space so I'll just have to figure out how to dress it up.
Continuing on the 6 channel thought, I fired up my old Zuki amp only to discover two channels are dead. OK, well, it's awfully big anyway, what other solution is there. Decided to keep the Alpine M12, for now, move the DM-810 down to the lower level.
Swapped the 1/0 cable for 4 gauge. Doubled up the ground wires so I wouldn't need a distribution block for the ground. Switched to a different fused distribution block for the positive. This is a Kicker version of a Blue Sea marine style block.
Purchased a new Helix M Six from the store. The M Six has more power, uses less space and sounds much better than my old PDX's.
I'm seriously thinking of swapping out the PDX-M12 for a Helix M One and the DM-810 for a Helix DSP.3
It looks like you accidentally copied the right mid assignments to the right tweeter. Based on the PDF, the right tweeter should be Purple/Orange (+) and Yellow/Orange (-)
Originally Posted by Robtrt8
The factory amp is on the passenger side under the rear quarter window. We disconnected the wire bundles from the amp to have something to work with.
Color key amended from PDFs below. Thanks guys!
Left Tweeter: Green/Orange (+) & Gray/Orange (-)
Right Tweeter: Yellow/Gray (-) & Purple/Gray (+)
Left Mid: Green/Blue (+) & Gray/Blue (-)
Right Mid: Yellow/Gray (-) & Purple/Gray (+)
Left Mid-Bass: White (+) & White/Brown (-)
Right Mid-Bass: White/Orange (-) & White/Purple (+)
Had a chance to work on the stereo after the car finally got back from having the pinion seal done.
I carved out a bunch of the plastic that used to hold onto the factory tweeter, just enough so I could get the GB10 to fit behind the factory grill. I know a lot of shops will use hot melt to hold tweeters in place but I prefer butyl tape. I've found it to be the most permanent un-permanent stuff out there. Boats are assembled with it but you can still peel off the tops sides, if you need to replace a fuel tank.
I also replaced the GB60's with GB40's to increase the mid-bass. I know, on paper it makes no sense but IRL the GB40's are one of the best mids available and they can play down to 110hz. The other benefit is I moved the tweeters up to 6,000hz because the GB40's can play that high. Paired with the Rainbow Vanadium, I finally have my staging, mid bass and dynamics I was looking for.
Turned down the input gains on the DSP. Some songs just sounded a little overmodulated.
Turned up the input gains on the M SIX. Floor noise is still zero.
Moved the GB40 HPF up to 150. They sound great at normal listening level but were clearly X MAXing when pushed.
Had that sixth channel doing nothing so I hooked up the GS8's that are still in the factory sub locations. It's only 100 watts but I'm band passing them between 100 and 150. Below 100 and the hat shelf buzzes.
Dropped the sub down to 25-100. Not as localizable.
Turned up the output gains on the sub and mid bass channels.
Can you double-check and confirm the right sub coil 2? You have purple/orange for the negative but that is the same as the right tweeter positive. I suppose it's possible if the wires happen to be in different bundles.
Originally Posted by Robtrt8
Color key amended from PDFs below. Thanks guys!
Left Tweeter: Green/Orange (+) & Gray/Orange (-)
Right Tweeter: Yellow/Gray (-) & Purple/Gray (+)
Left Mid: Green/Blue (+) & Gray/Blue (-)
Right Mid: Yellow/Gray (-) & Purple/Gray (+)
Left Mid-Bass: White (+) & White/Brown (-)
Right Mid-Bass: White/Orange (-) & White/Purple (+)
One set of coils are on one plug and the other set are on the other plug. They set it up that way so that no matter which side you balance to the subs continue to play.
05-20-2021, 08:40 PM
