Throttle Re-map
#21
05-31-2018, 04:04 PM
I don't want to promote products, but many different brands have videos graphing actual pedal output with/without a remapping device. The pedals without one take a few seconds after flooring to command WOT. The ones with a device command WOT right away, or very close.
It's common sense IMO that commanding WOT before some identical car next to you commands WOT will always be faster to 60.
Point is moot now, I choose and installed one (literally a 10 second install) and difference is substantial in the Jag. The improvement is mitigated somewhat by a fairly lengthy pull whether in WOT or not. IOWS, because of the less than stellar 0-60 performance of the V6S. Clearly a car that hits 60 very quickly will benefit the most from eliminating any delay to the first command of WOT.
This device allows choosing stock (no change), 4 increased performance curves (less throttle delay), and 2 diminished (more throttle delay) curves for better fuel economy--their claim not mine, but I think it has to be slightly better on gas to spline throttle inputs.
As one obvious way to settle the question of whether or not throttle response curves really do affect 0-60 times, the most diminished curve extends my Jag V6S 0-60 performance WELL into double-digit seconds. The highest performance curve (less delay) also provides a huge change on top of Dynamic mode.
Last edited by SGREENLYN; 05-31-2018 at 04:17 PM.
#22
05-31-2018, 05:16 PM
Seems you can't be educated, product has no impact on 0-60 it merely changes throttle curves.
So you can set it so 50% throttle at pedal is 100% at ECU and thus making the gas pedal vastly more sensitive.
But going from 0% to 100% pedal travel when launching the car is accomplished in like 0.1s.
If for yourself you able to shave of 2-3s then your either very short and can't press the pedal all the way down, whatever the case please stop spreading total BS.
It effects throttle curve and is a usefull device for those who wish to increase throttle pedal sensitivity but it won't make them go any faster, certainly not on most cars anyway.
When I was less savvy, did not know how ECU's operate and are tuned, I too was fooled by clever pedal commander marketing and got one for my 911, guess what my car felt way faster until I realised I was 100% throttle at the ECU but with only 50% throttle pedal input, so the next 50% of the pedal did nothing, all it did was over-sensitise the pedal.
The product made me go no quicker, the only advantage it offered was I could have sport throttle sensitivity but leave the car in normal mode which was advantageous in the 911 as normal mode had full traction control whereas sport mode put traction control in a more track mode and in the wet I preferred security of full traction control but hated the laggy pedal. This was where pedal commander can be good.
As to 0-60 it had no impact because with any more car if you stomp the pedal it registers 100% immediately and as such the speed of going from 0% to 100% throttle is soley determined by how quick you mash the pedal and for most people that happens pretty instantly.
As such no performance improvement is noticed, now maybe on an older car maybe, but on modern cars it has no impact on performance, certainly not like the magically 2-3s you've been trying to make out, fairy dust, snake oil its all BS.
Learn how to drive your car, that is how you extract the most performance, not with a gimmick.
But hey, if your a true believe, you should buy two, stack them so you get double the effect, damn you'd be reducing your 0-60 to the point you will go back in time.
So you can set it so 50% throttle at pedal is 100% at ECU and thus making the gas pedal vastly more sensitive.
But going from 0% to 100% pedal travel when launching the car is accomplished in like 0.1s.
If for yourself you able to shave of 2-3s then your either very short and can't press the pedal all the way down, whatever the case please stop spreading total BS.
It effects throttle curve and is a usefull device for those who wish to increase throttle pedal sensitivity but it won't make them go any faster, certainly not on most cars anyway.
When I was less savvy, did not know how ECU's operate and are tuned, I too was fooled by clever pedal commander marketing and got one for my 911, guess what my car felt way faster until I realised I was 100% throttle at the ECU but with only 50% throttle pedal input, so the next 50% of the pedal did nothing, all it did was over-sensitise the pedal.
The product made me go no quicker, the only advantage it offered was I could have sport throttle sensitivity but leave the car in normal mode which was advantageous in the 911 as normal mode had full traction control whereas sport mode put traction control in a more track mode and in the wet I preferred security of full traction control but hated the laggy pedal. This was where pedal commander can be good.
As to 0-60 it had no impact because with any more car if you stomp the pedal it registers 100% immediately and as such the speed of going from 0% to 100% throttle is soley determined by how quick you mash the pedal and for most people that happens pretty instantly.
As such no performance improvement is noticed, now maybe on an older car maybe, but on modern cars it has no impact on performance, certainly not like the magically 2-3s you've been trying to make out, fairy dust, snake oil its all BS.
Learn how to drive your car, that is how you extract the most performance, not with a gimmick.
But hey, if your a true believe, you should buy two, stack them so you get double the effect, damn you'd be reducing your 0-60 to the point you will go back in time.
#23
05-31-2018, 06:50 PM
As I said in the OP, there is widespread misconception about what these devices do. There are lots of youtube vids that explain how why and how 0-60 times are improved, and many (skeptical) user vids that show 0-60 performance both with and without so you can see the difference as measured by various users, cars and timing equipment. It's generally 5-10% faster to 60 after getting rid of the pedal's embedded WOT delay.
I don't want to promote products, but many different brands have videos graphing actual pedal output with/without a remapping device. The pedals without one take a few seconds after flooring to command WOT. The ones with a device command WOT right away, or very close.
It's common sense IMO that commanding WOT before some identical car next to you commands WOT will always be faster to 60.
Point is moot now, I choose and installed one (literally a 10 second install) and difference is substantial in the Jag. The improvement is mitigated somewhat by a fairly lengthy pull whether in WOT or not. IOWS, because of the less than stellar 0-60 performance of the V6S. Clearly a car that hits 60 very quickly will benefit the most from eliminating any delay to the first command of WOT.
This device allows choosing stock (no change), 4 increased performance curves (less throttle delay), and 2 diminished (more throttle delay) curves for better fuel economy--their claim not mine, but I think it has to be slightly better on gas to spline throttle inputs.
As one obvious way to settle the question of whether or not throttle response curves really do affect 0-60 times, the most diminished curve extends my Jag V6S 0-60 performance WELL into double-digit seconds. The highest performance curve (less delay) also provides a huge change on top of Dynamic mode.
I don't want to promote products, but many different brands have videos graphing actual pedal output with/without a remapping device. The pedals without one take a few seconds after flooring to command WOT. The ones with a device command WOT right away, or very close.
It's common sense IMO that commanding WOT before some identical car next to you commands WOT will always be faster to 60.
Point is moot now, I choose and installed one (literally a 10 second install) and difference is substantial in the Jag. The improvement is mitigated somewhat by a fairly lengthy pull whether in WOT or not. IOWS, because of the less than stellar 0-60 performance of the V6S. Clearly a car that hits 60 very quickly will benefit the most from eliminating any delay to the first command of WOT.
This device allows choosing stock (no change), 4 increased performance curves (less throttle delay), and 2 diminished (more throttle delay) curves for better fuel economy--their claim not mine, but I think it has to be slightly better on gas to spline throttle inputs.
As one obvious way to settle the question of whether or not throttle response curves really do affect 0-60 times, the most diminished curve extends my Jag V6S 0-60 performance WELL into double-digit seconds. The highest performance curve (less delay) also provides a huge change on top of Dynamic mode.
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Don1954 (06-01-2018)
#24
05-31-2018, 07:02 PM
The sad thing is that the snakeoil salesmen have succeeded in fooling a LOT of people.
And by the way if you want ACTUAL proof, hook up an OBD and monitor 1) the throttle and 2) the pedal, graph them both. This idea that you can go faster by adding something between the pedal pot and the ecu is just utter nonsense that's been disproven time and time again. If you want to change the curve of your pedal for better drivability or for personal preference, those things are great for that. There's no change in vehicle performance, only driver perception/convenience/preference. I had one of these on another car for the purpose of decreasing the hair-trigger nonlinear crap set up by the manufacturer to make the car "feel fast", when all it did was make it difficult to modulate from a stop.
If you have some physical inability to move the gas pedal through its full range in less than 0.01 second, then this might be for you.
If you find that the output from the pedal (as shown by the OBD) is not instant, DO let us know.
Source: Science
And by the way if you want ACTUAL proof, hook up an OBD and monitor 1) the throttle and 2) the pedal, graph them both. This idea that you can go faster by adding something between the pedal pot and the ecu is just utter nonsense that's been disproven time and time again. If you want to change the curve of your pedal for better drivability or for personal preference, those things are great for that. There's no change in vehicle performance, only driver perception/convenience/preference. I had one of these on another car for the purpose of decreasing the hair-trigger nonlinear crap set up by the manufacturer to make the car "feel fast", when all it did was make it difficult to modulate from a stop.
If you have some physical inability to move the gas pedal through its full range in less than 0.01 second, then this might be for you.
If you find that the output from the pedal (as shown by the OBD) is not instant, DO let us know.
Source: Science
Last edited by 15FTypeR; 05-31-2018 at 07:12 PM.
#25
05-31-2018, 07:44 PM
Since you quote my reply, I'll respond.
Did you even read what I wrote?
The device is getting a signal from the pedal and passing it along, modified, to the ECU. If the pedal itself is delaying the signal, the device will not know you are requesting 100% until the pedal passes that along.
The device is getting a signal from the pedal and passing it along, modified, to the ECU. If the pedal itself is delaying the signal, the device will not know you are requesting 100% until the pedal passes that along.
#26
05-31-2018, 09:34 PM
Since you quote my reply, I'll respond.
Did you even read what I wrote?
The device is getting a signal from the pedal and passing it along, modified, to the ECU. If the pedal itself is delaying the signal, the device will not know you are requesting 100% until the pedal passes that along.
Did you even read what I wrote?
The device is getting a signal from the pedal and passing it along, modified, to the ECU. If the pedal itself is delaying the signal, the device will not know you are requesting 100% until the pedal passes that along.
Let see if we can all settle down and reach consensus...
Do you agree that if your pedal hardware takes 2 weeks from the time you floor it to the time it commands a +1% throttle change, that it would affect a car's 0-60 time?
Last edited by SGREENLYN; 05-31-2018 at 09:40 PM.
#27
05-31-2018, 09:51 PM
We as automotive engineers would never leave tenths or hundredths of seconds on the table in any car. When we're sitting here constantly battling back and forth over horsepower, 0-60 and 1/4th mile times; do you think we're going to let precious time slip away with something we control? No... of course not.
Throttle signal is instant... period. The ECM's reaction is near instant. And no pedal controller is going to change that reaction time.
#28
05-31-2018, 10:05 PM
Yes?
No?
Note to engineers: there is no pedal "delay" in my question above, just a shallow slope that results in a "delayed" WOT command. Think of it as a slow runner in a race, they don't sit around at the starting line to generate their time delta.
#29
05-31-2018, 10:25 PM
Since you avoided my question, I take it you agree that if the stock throttle curve requires 2 weeks to command a 1% throttle change, then it would slow the time to reach 60.
Yes?
No?
Note to engineers: there is no pedal "delay" in my question above, just a shallow slope that results in a "delayed" WOT command. Think of it as a slow runner in a race, they don't sit around at the starting line to generate their time delta.
Yes?
No?
Note to engineers: there is no pedal "delay" in my question above, just a shallow slope that results in a "delayed" WOT command. Think of it as a slow runner in a race, they don't sit around at the starting line to generate their time delta.
Again, did you really think about what I wrote? Or Stohlen? There is no *delay* in the pedal itself. There is a map that translates pedal position (percentage) with throttle position (percentage). The device adjusts the actual pedal angle versus reported pedal angle. That's it.
#30
05-31-2018, 10:42 PM
It is mathematically impossible for a device work strictly as a function of pedal output...
f(po)
...and generate huge changes in 0-60 times between a selected "economy" curve and the stock curve, without also generating some positive change on the performance curve side. That is mathematically indisputable.
It really is quite simple, which is why every vid on you tube concludes these devices are well worth the money, from car mags to end users. Some vids demonstrate the 0-60 deltas in real cars, over many trials. It only takes 1 to 2 mins to understand it. Just search-up any random video and take a look.
f(po)
...and generate huge changes in 0-60 times between a selected "economy" curve and the stock curve, without also generating some positive change on the performance curve side. That is mathematically indisputable.
It really is quite simple, which is why every vid on you tube concludes these devices are well worth the money, from car mags to end users. Some vids demonstrate the 0-60 deltas in real cars, over many trials. It only takes 1 to 2 mins to understand it. Just search-up any random video and take a look.
Last edited by SGREENLYN; 05-31-2018 at 11:28 PM.
#31
05-31-2018, 10:45 PM
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Last edited by ndabunka; 05-31-2018 at 10:50 PM.
#32
05-31-2018, 11:15 PM
It is mathematically impossible for a device work strictly as a function of pedal output...
f(po)
...and generate huge changes in 0-60 times between a selected "economy" curve and the stock curve, without also generating some positive change on the performance curve side. That is mathematically indisputable.
f(po)
...and generate huge changes in 0-60 times between a selected "economy" curve and the stock curve, without also generating some positive change on the performance curve side. That is mathematically indisputable.
I can probably find a "vid" on youtube that explains the flatness of the Earth in about a second of searching, but it's unlikely to be rigorous enough to counter generally accepted evidence.
#33
05-31-2018, 11:20 PM
Maybe "mathematically" doesn't mean what you think it means. If I were of a mind (and had the energy) I could dispute it, with charts, but I doubt they'd change your opinion. Tilting at windmills can be mildly entertaining for a short time, but that's about it.
Your explanation of what the device does is sufficiently questionable that you'll need to provide very rigorous evidence.
I can probably find a "vid" on youtube that explains the flatness of the Earth in about a second of searching, but it's unlikely to be rigorous enough to counter generally accepted evidence.
Your explanation of what the device does is sufficiently questionable that you'll need to provide very rigorous evidence.
I can probably find a "vid" on youtube that explains the flatness of the Earth in about a second of searching, but it's unlikely to be rigorous enough to counter generally accepted evidence.
Once you see the pedal command curves plotted against time, when hooked up to actual car pedals, you will instantly understand.
It only takes a minute.
Last edited by SGREENLYN; 05-31-2018 at 11:24 PM.
#34
05-31-2018, 11:28 PM
Since the obvious answer to my OP is no, no one here has tried one, here are some initial impressions:
My first impression is that if you are just trying to improve 0-60, the V6S isn't strong enough at WOT below 5K RPM to pull hard enough to exploit the advantages of a sooner WOT command. Though it helps some, its harder to justify for a V6S then it would be in an R or SVR. And having driven the 2016 R quite a bit before deciding on the 2016 V6S, to be frank, I don't think that R is strong enough either--why I bought the V6S. An SVR would be best suited to earlier WOT wrenching the car forward from lower RPMs.
Another issue is the slow shifting of the 8 speed, which in Drive mode, tend to mitigate the fun of building quicker power even from a higher RPM starting point during daily driving. So that leaves Sport mode, which is noticeably quicker but not stunningly so, even on the most aggressive setting which is quicker to accelerate (downright jerky) as soon as you touch the pedal.
Yet another F-Type issue is the lightly sprung pedal. On the most aggressive curves, you cannot rest your shin/foot at in any way at all without roaring forward. I know racing drivers often prefer a very light spring with a long throw to modulate throttle in turns without becoming tail happy around the track, but it is not comfortable for day to day driving IMO. This devices makes that worse. That said, when dialing back to stock, I noticed the car never really lets you rest your foot completely when Dynamic mode, and is only a little better in standard mode.
I never owned one of these with a reduced "economy" curve, but it is pretty interesting to press the pedal and be transported into a Toyota Prius. Weird. Don't know if it will increase mpg much. Don't know if I care.
With my modded BMW 135i, man as soon as you touch the (modded) pedal, even at around town speedss the tires would start to light up and the rear end would get sideways (only the weak, 320hp 1M has a proper LSD), made worse by the heavy 4K pound convertible 1-series; no traction possible with my 285 P-Zeros.
That makes modding the pedal curve way more fun. But if one really wanted cheap modding potential ($5K to refined 610hp around 23 psi or so) and little interior luxury or exterior looks, AND you don't mind sinking $10s of thousands into routine repairs, annually, unrelated to tuning, then the BMW would be for you. The 135 is such a great a sweet spot for tuners, and such a horrible car.
Just for fun (be sure to watch the last race)...
My first impression is that if you are just trying to improve 0-60, the V6S isn't strong enough at WOT below 5K RPM to pull hard enough to exploit the advantages of a sooner WOT command. Though it helps some, its harder to justify for a V6S then it would be in an R or SVR. And having driven the 2016 R quite a bit before deciding on the 2016 V6S, to be frank, I don't think that R is strong enough either--why I bought the V6S. An SVR would be best suited to earlier WOT wrenching the car forward from lower RPMs.
Another issue is the slow shifting of the 8 speed, which in Drive mode, tend to mitigate the fun of building quicker power even from a higher RPM starting point during daily driving. So that leaves Sport mode, which is noticeably quicker but not stunningly so, even on the most aggressive setting which is quicker to accelerate (downright jerky) as soon as you touch the pedal.
Yet another F-Type issue is the lightly sprung pedal. On the most aggressive curves, you cannot rest your shin/foot at in any way at all without roaring forward. I know racing drivers often prefer a very light spring with a long throw to modulate throttle in turns without becoming tail happy around the track, but it is not comfortable for day to day driving IMO. This devices makes that worse. That said, when dialing back to stock, I noticed the car never really lets you rest your foot completely when Dynamic mode, and is only a little better in standard mode.
I never owned one of these with a reduced "economy" curve, but it is pretty interesting to press the pedal and be transported into a Toyota Prius. Weird. Don't know if it will increase mpg much. Don't know if I care.
With my modded BMW 135i, man as soon as you touch the (modded) pedal, even at around town speedss the tires would start to light up and the rear end would get sideways (only the weak, 320hp 1M has a proper LSD), made worse by the heavy 4K pound convertible 1-series; no traction possible with my 285 P-Zeros.
That makes modding the pedal curve way more fun. But if one really wanted cheap modding potential ($5K to refined 610hp around 23 psi or so) and little interior luxury or exterior looks, AND you don't mind sinking $10s of thousands into routine repairs, annually, unrelated to tuning, then the BMW would be for you. The 135 is such a great a sweet spot for tuners, and such a horrible car.
Just for fun (be sure to watch the last race)...
Last edited by SGREENLYN; 05-31-2018 at 11:55 PM.
#35
05-31-2018, 11:51 PM
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I dunno, but maybe just maybe the OP is confusing throttle response with auto transmission response, for example see this post: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...7/#post1874850
#36
06-01-2018, 12:04 AM
Have you considered watching any of the youtube vids that do that for you? There are hundreds of them, many from car mags and independent reviewers. I have yet to see a non-glowing recommendation. I would add my view to that pile, with the caveats I wrote above about V6S applicability.
Once you see the pedal command curves plotted against time, when hooked up to actual car pedals, you will instantly understand.
It only takes a minute.
Once you see the pedal command curves plotted against time, when hooked up to actual car pedals, you will instantly understand.
It only takes a minute.
To be fair, I'll look at some of the videos, but probably not until the weekend. I'll try not to let any preconceptions color my assessment.
#37
06-01-2018, 12:04 AM
I dunno, but maybe just maybe the OP is confusing throttle response with auto transmission response, for example see this post: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...7/#post1874850
#38
06-01-2018, 12:15 AM
Have you considered following my logic? Doesn't even take a minute. I haven't taken a pedal assembly apart, but think it's a sensor with no logic circuitry. That would match the DBW systems I've seen previously, one of which I modified by editing the map tables directly. I worked for a while on an open source project that enabled such editing of various tables in the engine management system.
To be fair, I'll look at some of the videos, but probably not until the weekend. I'll try not to let any preconceptions color my assessment.
To be fair, I'll look at some of the videos, but probably not until the weekend. I'll try not to let any preconceptions color my assessment.
The Jag's throttle response, even in Dynamic mode, is greatly improved. But low end grunt just isn't anywhere to be found, even wide open. I hope that tunes get better over time, but the 3.0 base motor needs to be in a high rev band to generate much immediate pull.
In Sport mode, maintaining higher revs with a some immediate WOT pulling power is predictable and doable, so the new pedal map is satisfying. Worth it.
In D, an immediate clumsy shift always seems to get in the way. A double clutch would solve D mode, but that ain't gonna happen.
Last edited by SGREENLYN; 06-01-2018 at 02:44 AM.
#39
06-01-2018, 02:33 AM
There's no reason to put a "delay" in the pedal when it can all be done in the ECU. How many engineers does it take to convince you that nonsense = nonsense. No engineer would build it that way, period.
At best all your doing is "making your foot appear to move faster", which is something you could also do with your foot.
To humor the "believers", I will connect an OBD to the car tomorrow and datalog and put all of this crap to rest. A few times a year one of these conversations breaks out, and it's like convincing someone that their religion is wrong.
Guys lets stop wasting our time... At this point I'm pretty confident they represent a company that sells these things. Brand new account here..... and this is the only topic they're ever "contributed". Go tell your boss you weren't able to trick us, but I'm sure another forum will fall for it, no worries.
At best all your doing is "making your foot appear to move faster", which is something you could also do with your foot.
To humor the "believers", I will connect an OBD to the car tomorrow and datalog and put all of this crap to rest. A few times a year one of these conversations breaks out, and it's like convincing someone that their religion is wrong.
Guys lets stop wasting our time... At this point I'm pretty confident they represent a company that sells these things. Brand new account here..... and this is the only topic they're ever "contributed". Go tell your boss you weren't able to trick us, but I'm sure another forum will fall for it, no worries.
Last edited by 15FTypeR; 06-01-2018 at 02:56 AM.
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Don1954 (06-01-2018)
