Throttle Re-map
#122
06-02-2018, 08:43 PM
Modern tunes often include a more aggressive throttle curve.
That is not what makes the car actually faster.
The tune makes it faster.
The throttle curve can make it also "feel" even better too, for those who like a sensitive pedal. Lots of people like a sensitive pedal. Lots of carmakers are already playing this non-linearity game with the gas pedal.
Adding a throttle curve for "feel" because people like that feel is not snakeoil. Legitimate tuners do not claim that a throttle curve makes a car faster. Because they know that's not true.
Someone claiming that adding only a throttle curve (using that gadget you have) will make the car faster IS being a snakeoil salesman. That is the difference.
I think you MIGHT be close to understanding the above. I have faith. Nobody's been fooled until they allow themselves to be fooled.
That is not what makes the car actually faster.
The tune makes it faster.
The throttle curve can make it also "feel" even better too, for those who like a sensitive pedal. Lots of people like a sensitive pedal. Lots of carmakers are already playing this non-linearity game with the gas pedal.
Adding a throttle curve for "feel" because people like that feel is not snakeoil. Legitimate tuners do not claim that a throttle curve makes a car faster. Because they know that's not true.
Someone claiming that adding only a throttle curve (using that gadget you have) will make the car faster IS being a snakeoil salesman. That is the difference.
I think you MIGHT be close to understanding the above. I have faith. Nobody's been fooled until they allow themselves to be fooled.
Last edited by 15FTypeR; 06-02-2018 at 08:59 PM.
The following users liked this post:
ndabunka (06-02-2018)
#123
06-02-2018, 08:45 PM
I'm posting proof from an position of many years of experimentation and use. You don't understand DBW. This is such a well know issue that virtually all modern tunes include a more aggressive T-Map. Are you really smarter than everyonein the tuning community? Are you nuts?
Assume the pedal has a delay:
The ECU cannot open the throttle valve sooner by remapping because it cannot predict the future.
Do you understand this?
The following users liked this post:
ndabunka (06-02-2018)
#124
06-02-2018, 09:00 PM
Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posts: 1,260
Received 157 Likes
on
129 Posts
I'm posting proof from an position of many years of experimentation and use. You don't understand DBW. This is such a well know issue that virtually all modern tunes include a more aggressive T-Map. Are you really smarter than everyonein the tuning community? Are you nuts?
so the only logical question is "Did you just PROVE that you are the one lacking in a grasp of reality?"
#125
06-02-2018, 09:02 PM
Veteran Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Charlotte, North Carolina
Posts: 1,260
Received 157 Likes
on
129 Posts
sigh... we have gone over this too many times already and you STILL don't get it. You continue to attempt to twist logic beyond reality. ECM mapping has ZERO to do with the devices you are failing to promote. One day you will get it... ECM programming can do many thing. 3rd party snake oil crappy parts don;t do ****. Now, quit trying to pedal that **** as if it's gold.
#127
06-02-2018, 09:21 PM
Your arguments defy logic. You say the problem is in the pedal, but it can be fixed with a tune. The ECU only knows the pedal position now, and in the short time preceding now.
Assume the pedal has a delay:
The ECU cannot open the throttle valve sooner by remapping because it cannot predict the future.
Do you understand this?
Assume the pedal has a delay:
The ECU cannot open the throttle valve sooner by remapping because it cannot predict the future.
Do you understand this?
So Snow mode is utterly identical in every way to Dynamic mode, right?
(This is where you try to argue that the ECU slowing the throttle body opening speed as a result of a given throttle movement isn't actually slowing down throttle body opening speed compared to a given throttle movement. So it identical to Dynamic mode in every way.)
Last edited by SGREENLYN; 06-02-2018 at 09:31 PM.
#128
06-02-2018, 09:25 PM
You're resorting to hyperbole now and it's not necessary because I believe we are close to an understanding.
Here is the direct link:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...7/#post1906306
Last edited by 15FTypeR; 06-02-2018 at 09:28 PM.
#129
06-02-2018, 09:28 PM
You know, I think the manufacturers are missing a trick here. Porsche, Audi, BMW etc - all spend hundreds of thousands of $$ if not millions perfecting their cars to get bragging rights of lap records at the Nürburgring to help market their cars. If only they would invest $300 in a pedal commander from Amazon.com - they would be tenths of seconds ahead of their competition!
SCREENGLYN - ever thought of contacting them, or better still forward them a YouTube evidence vid. They might sign you on as an engineering consultant, never know.
SCREENGLYN - ever thought of contacting them, or better still forward them a YouTube evidence vid. They might sign you on as an engineering consultant, never know.
#130
06-02-2018, 09:33 PM
What modern sports car doesn't ship with selectable throttle maps??? Your Jag has that snake oil, too.
#131
06-02-2018, 09:39 PM
Ahh, I see... you like to drive in Snow mode. Why didn't you say so? You know you like it. Come on, admit it. Raise your hands, all of you. Get em up.
The Snow throttle map is absolutely identical in throttle body opening rate over time as that stupid snake oil Dynamic throttle map.
The Snow throttle map is absolutely identical in throttle body opening rate over time as that stupid snake oil Dynamic throttle map.
#132
06-02-2018, 09:40 PM
Veteran Member
Btw, all of the videos do their side by side comparisons with the device attached. (Just different settings). Where can we see real with/without results?
Using that same methodology, let’s see some dyno runs. Of course peak power won’t be different but area under the curve should be greater if the device is working as claimed.
#133
06-02-2018, 09:47 PM
SGREENLYN - I have always been intrigued by these as well:
Seen as you are up for some experimentation, think you could add one to your car and document the results for us? I’m thinking some sort of Excel matrix - different combos with and without the Pedal Commander / 12v electric turbo blower.
Seen as you are up for some experimentation, think you could add one to your car and document the results for us? I’m thinking some sort of Excel matrix - different combos with and without the Pedal Commander / 12v electric turbo blower.
#134
06-02-2018, 10:03 PM
Yes. Look at the beginning of “V6S Tune” thread circa November 2015.
Btw, all of the videos do their side by side comparisons with the device attached. (Just different settings). Where can we see real with/without results?
Using that same methodology, let’s see some dyno runs. Of course peak power won’t be different but area under the curve should be greater if the device is working as claimed.
#136
06-02-2018, 10:13 PM
Veteran Member
However, just as I thought, the Sprint Booster is nothing more than a signal amplifier: http://www.crosslake.net/~dbipes/spr...intBooster.pdf
It is not a time machine.
#137
06-02-2018, 10:35 PM
Adding a throttle curve for "feel" because people like that feel is not snakeoil.
Show me a mathematical justification for "feeling" more accelleration without car movement.
#138
06-02-2018, 10:41 PM
Why do you think Jag includes 3 different throttle maps if throttle maps have positively, absolutely no effect whatsoever on a cars performance?
So Snow mode is utterly identical in every way to Dynamic mode, right?
(This is where you try to argue that the ECU slowing the throttle body opening speed as a result of a given throttle movement isn't actually slowing down throttle body opening speed compared to a given throttle movement. So it identical to Dynamic mode in every way.)
So Snow mode is utterly identical in every way to Dynamic mode, right?
(This is where you try to argue that the ECU slowing the throttle body opening speed as a result of a given throttle movement isn't actually slowing down throttle body opening speed compared to a given throttle movement. So it identical to Dynamic mode in every way.)
You've gone from "pedal has delayed response" so pedal needs to be fixed to ECM (ECU) programming can fix that. I *do* understand DBW, and what you say makes no sense.
Those modes (ice/snow. normal, dynamic) are not throttle maps. They do affect throttle response but also traction control and transmission response (if you have an automatic). Probably some other stuff too, but I've got a manual transmission so not all applies to my car.
A throttle map takes pedal position and reports that as a request. More aggressive throttle maps are more sensitive in the initial travel at the expense of the rest of the travel. The car feels "faster" because all the action happens in the initial pedal travel and the lower half of the pedal travel is worthless.
I have the configurable dynamic options and choose to have it never alter the throttle map. Can you understand why I have made this *informed* decision?
#139
06-02-2018, 10:44 PM
There just isn't anything more after that. It sells cars though.