@Velocity

I might be off base here with these questions (I hope not), as I typically don't tune/modify engines on my cars (for fear of warranty issues), so except for an APR tune on an A4 years ago...I'm not up to speed on any of the technicalities.

But...there's something I see here, and on many other forums, for brands all across the spectrum, and that's where my questions come in.

Why is it so hard to get before and after dyno results? Every tuner everywhere has the sales pitch about X power, followed by countless threads of folks asking for proof. I would think it would be simple for countless folks to be able to post before and after dyno results of any given tune...but yet they always seem elusive. Why is that?

Second, if a large tuning/manufacturing/modifying company as yourself does so much work on cars...why do you not own a dyno and be able to do this in house. Seems like the investment would make sense, instead of chasing timetables to have clients + dyno shops + your available time all line up?

**I hope these questions don't come off in a negative way. I don't have anything against Velocity or any tuner/mod company...these are just honest questions that I have.

 

From my understanding, Velocity does have a dyno, they just haven't had an opportunity to install their tune on a 3.0 to get the before and after charts at their location. They've been able to do so on the 5.0, but not a 3.0 in their shop. It sounds like the problem they're having is getting the information (pre and post dyno) from mail tuning.

 

I already have a custom tune on my XFR, so I'm an observer here. But as others have said, I'm always interested in tuning threads and the way that the tuner typically doesn't have the before and after data. A big part of it is that most people who buy tunes don't do before and after runs. And most are sold via mail, so they aren't local to the tuner and the situation here plays out.

I started with a basic knowledge of tunes and read everything I could to learn about what was important in a tuner. I sought out people who I know do the best quality work and then cross-referenced their reputations so I know my car would be ok long term. So glad it did because I had a really great learning experience with my tuner. Early on almost bought Eurocharged, but some info from a now defunct Virginia location scared me. And I'm not disparaging them as a lot of people have their tunes and I haven't heard about motors popping.

This is the reason I decided to post tonight. I think it's great how Stuart and the Velocity team are very open with information and are willing to answer questions.

One thing that I don't understand is why the power numbers are given as bhp numbers and not rwhp numbers with the before and after numbers and the type of dyno? I think most of it is for marketing purposes because the majority of customers wouldn't know what to do with the info since they haven't educated themselves. But if a tuner didn't give me that info, at least for two or three cars, it would make me suspicious if the gains were really there (value), what the power and torque under the curve looked like (flexibility) and what the AFR's were at high RPM's (safety).

And for those of you shopping for tunes, educate yourself and ask for at least the three things I outlined above, even if it's for just one car as an example. If you look at my previous posts, you will find a complete and thorough documentation of dyno results through my upgrade path and how the graphs should look. The reason I mention that is some of the dyno sheets I see on the forums look awful. I don't get much info from those when they are jagged and start late in the rpm range. A peak power and torque number means little to me. I want to know how the before and after curves differ over the largest range that can be recorded.

With hindsight, I actually did my dyno runs incorrectly, as I sometimes made two changes between runs and then also realized my supercharger coolant pump failure was causing lower power readings. Glad I went back and did a final, final so I could truly know where I started and finished.

Sorry to Stuart for the diversion of Velocity's thread, but I want people to understand what they should be looking for. I hope they can produce those results soon, as it's good to have a professional option and a handheld programmer to change tunes.

 

Not off base at all, and I share your frustration and amazement at how challenging it is to get good feeback and results.

1. We don't own a dyno, and I don't know if I would call us 'large' - I would say medium sized. An AWD dyno in our location is part of our plans in the next 18 months. But as anyone who has built a business from scratch will know, you can't do everything you want to all at once. We are also waiting on the completion of a great race track local to us (Home < Area 27: Discover Your Life On Track) as our intention is to be base there and I'd rather set the dyno up at that location. In the interim, we're able to produce some good results by building from OEM maps. For example if you have a V8S with 495BHP, the 575BHP Project 7 file is not a bad starting point. Beyond that we have been able to do some work with several different owners, but as you have stated, concrete information has been elusive. Case in point - owner 1, baselined a 2016 AWD R. Ran our tune on 91 Octane and generated 42RWHP, around 55 Crank. Dyno operator sent us before numbers, before graph and after numbers but no after graph. I called 6 times and requested the info and never got it. Their dyno computer is 'not hooked up to the internet.' Etc. etc. Same owner managed to install the pulley backwards, so had to be sent another. I believe that is now on the car, but one of our loaner Kess tools will have to be sent back, or we will have to send him a handheld as we moved it on to the next owner.

Another owner in NY offered to do before & after dynos and I gave a generous discount. All we got was a verbal 'car made 549WHP' and after 4 or 5 calls to the shop with the dyno chasing data & graphs I again gave up.

Those are just two examples, but it is incredible how difficult it is to get someone to take 5 minutes to email you a document. In the interim, you will have to bear with us as we work to generate a bank of results. I have a long time Aston customer in Texas who is doing tune, pulley and sport cats on a 2WD R, and will be doing dynos and I am hopeful he will come through with some good info.

Having said all that, we have written some tunes for some forum members such as Cbroth who have done some extensive datalogging and testing for us, to allow us to verify timing & fuelling, and who will tell you without question that there are large & demonstrable gains. There are no smoke & mirrors here.

Our company is growing in leaps & bounds, no doubt based on results and based on transparent & honest practices and will continue to do so. But I can also tell you that it takes time to grow a business & to be able to afford to do all the things you want to do, dyno purchases included. I don't know for sure that this will alleviate all the problems as we are located in an area without fantastic access to cars, but in time we will have these tools at our disposal.

One thing I will say is that we are unequivocally NOT one of these companies that is simply regurgitating canned tunes or pulling a couple of torque limiters and calling it a day. We write all our own software and do so with many, many years of factory training in JLR, Aston & Bentley behind us. We work with our dealers & customers to generate authentic data wherever possible and this is borne out by many of our other projects.

If you check our website you will see we have done some incredible things with some very highly strung exotics like the McLaren 675LT, proven on the dyno as you would like to see.

In time we will have built up a great data bank of Jag tuning results, but in the meantime, we're relying on the positive feedback from lots of happy customers

 

Great questions and to the point.


Some before/after results are available on this thread: https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/f...6/#post1345316

 

Maybe if there was an incentive for one those "countless" people to do dyno? Not many people want to see a stranger climb into their 100k car and take her to 6700 rpm's enough times to get enough results to make it a proven fact , but maybe I'm wrong.

 

In all of these cases, we had offered financial incentives to do so. Unfortunately it doesn't always work out.

 

Stuart,

What's the going rate for dyno time, and about how much dyno time would you need to get good pre- and post-tune data? Depending upon the post-tune results, would you possibly need to go back and fine tune things requiring a 3rd or 4th dyno session?

In other words, are the incentives offered sufficient or is it going to cost the test subject more money than just waiting for your tune-in-a-box?

 

For the first V6 customer, cost is $250 which is the cost of the programmer. Dyno time is going to vary, but if you rent by the hour you can usually get a couple hours at $150/hour.

How long it takes is really dependent upon us getting quality feedback, quickly. Based on the work we've done already I would say we need a couple hours of dyno time to finish up.

 

I do it every day, so I'm not too squeamish about an experienced professional tuner doing it.

 

@Stuart

Just sent you an email.

 

I would be happy to help with your before and after dyno situation. I am very friendly with a local shop called TR3 and they have provided me before and afters with my other cars. PM me if you would like to do this. 2012 XJ Supercharged.

 

Which engine do you have? The AJ126?

 

Hey guys, I'm back from 3 weeks in Europe and ready for more testing. If only I had and AWD dyno at home....still trying to find one that isn't 2.5 hrs away! I really want to generate a stock before and then tune + DP and tune + DP +pulley data for the forum to see!

Availability of an AWD dyno is the biggest inhibitor to data for the 2016+ R vehicles, but if I were RWD, I would have data tomorrow as there are about 10 dynos in town, but only 1 or 2 Mustangs. The rest are Dynojets of course as they are "cheap" to buy and maintain.

 

I have a few shops around, but none are getting back in touch with me and has been very frustrating. Does anyone of the Jersey guys know of a shop they deal with and could assist with an introduction?

 

Is forest hill, MD close enough?

 

There is another in Bethel, PA but it is tied up for scheduled tunes (their own) right now and they are not taking on straight dyno runs for awhile.

 

Thank you. Yeah I guess its because of the time of the year and everyone getting their toys ready for the summer? I didn't think this would be this difficult. I didn't think there would be such a demand for dynos that their so busy not to call back perspective customer. Just frustrating..

 

Some good news. We definitely have some good dyno info coming in for the V8 models. A couple of people doing before & after now, one with pulley/tune and one with pulley/tune/sport cats.

On a related note, we just completed a tune on a V8S for a customer from Germany who has access to the Autobahn. As you can see from his logged data, the in-gear acceleration times from 100-200km/h was reduced from 8.62 to 7.71 seconds, and 200-297km/h was reduced from 27.84 down to 22.39 seconds!

Some good real-world data. Especially at higher speeds, over 200km/h (120MPH) the difference in HP will be the most evident as wind resistance becomes an issue.

 

@Stuart
I'm waiting for your response. I emailed you CC'ing my dyno shop.