What are most of you doing on oil changes?
#41
Here is Subaru example from 2012-2014 - new 2.0L boxer engines had serious oil consumption issues (again, no recall, supposedly 1L/1000km is 'normal') because flaw in the scraper ring design. Nobody tested these engines with the old engine oil and it only starts burning oil at around 2K. With 10K oil change interval (also new) it takes multiple top-ups to not run dry. They probably tested with the fresh oil using old change interval and never seen this issue.
I am offering Beer Bet that new Imprezas coming out this year with DI engine will have intake sludge problems. Boxer engine configuration makes it more likely, and Subaru is yet to produce trouble-free engine in the last decade or so.
I am offering Beer Bet that new Imprezas coming out this year with DI engine will have intake sludge problems. Boxer engine configuration makes it more likely, and Subaru is yet to produce trouble-free engine in the last decade or so.
And yes... Of course a new DI engine is going to suffer from intake sludge. That's how the design works... Just like how belts get old and crack, and spark plugs degrade. This is a general maintanence item, walnut blast the intake every 30k or whatever and you're fine. The benefits out weigh the extra maintenance needed and it has absolutely nothing to do with oil change intervals nor the boxer engine configuration. Stop spreading misinformation like a disease.
#42
I suspect that on a $20K car such $500+ out-of-pocket procedure will never be done. Plus, with Subaru engine configuration you will probably have to take the engine out to get it done.
#43
Stohlen,
Your take on the "walnut blast" as becoming a routine maintenance item on GDI engines is an interesting one. I'm not disagreeing with you, and the benefit may well outweigh the cost.
But, just out of curiosity, what's the approximate charge for such a maintenance procedure, and do you see the cost coming down as these are done all the time given the staggering number of GDI engines that will soon be out there over 30K miles?
I suppose it beats the hell out of having to pay for an annual Ferrari service, or having to remove the cab of an F-350 diesel to change the spark plugs.
Your take on the "walnut blast" as becoming a routine maintenance item on GDI engines is an interesting one. I'm not disagreeing with you, and the benefit may well outweigh the cost.
But, just out of curiosity, what's the approximate charge for such a maintenance procedure, and do you see the cost coming down as these are done all the time given the staggering number of GDI engines that will soon be out there over 30K miles?
I suppose it beats the hell out of having to pay for an annual Ferrari service, or having to remove the cab of an F-350 diesel to change the spark plugs.
#44
But, just out of curiosity, what's the approximate charge for such a maintenance procedure, and do you see the cost coming down as these are done all the time given the staggering number of GDI engines that will soon be out there over 30K miles?
I suppose it beats the hell out of having to pay for an annual Ferrari service, or having to remove the cab of an F-350 diesel to change the spark plugs.
I suppose it beats the hell out of having to pay for an annual Ferrari service, or having to remove the cab of an F-350 diesel to change the spark plugs.
#45
I'm sure you meant glow plugs, it being a diesel.
If (if) 30k miles is found to be a common interval and if (if) GDI engines become mainstream and if (if) no solution is found to preventing intake valve carbon build up, then maybe (maybe) media blasting done by garages will become part of normal service. Some clever soul will invent a device that combines a camera, media delivery tube and vacuum all into a flexible wand that could be guided down the intake tract to the affected valve. Not rocket surgery. Maybe (maybe) it's already been invented.
Alternatively, and similar to the method used by modern diesels and DEF fluid to give themselves a good scrubbing, possibly future GDI vehicles would incorporate a device that sprays a minute quantity of intake valve cleaner when the car senses a contamination issue. Maybe it could be combined with the oil vapour coming from the crankcase or combined with EGR flow.
Naaaaah, engineers are stupid and overruled by bean counters and guys in suits.
If (if) 30k miles is found to be a common interval and if (if) GDI engines become mainstream and if (if) no solution is found to preventing intake valve carbon build up, then maybe (maybe) media blasting done by garages will become part of normal service. Some clever soul will invent a device that combines a camera, media delivery tube and vacuum all into a flexible wand that could be guided down the intake tract to the affected valve. Not rocket surgery. Maybe (maybe) it's already been invented.
Alternatively, and similar to the method used by modern diesels and DEF fluid to give themselves a good scrubbing, possibly future GDI vehicles would incorporate a device that sprays a minute quantity of intake valve cleaner when the car senses a contamination issue. Maybe it could be combined with the oil vapour coming from the crankcase or combined with EGR flow.
Naaaaah, engineers are stupid and overruled by bean counters and guys in suits.
#49
Subaru uses a hybrid port/DI system, at least in the BRZ. I remember when they announced it I thought this was a clever "best of both" system, and might also forestall intake valve oil sludge problems. Whether this turned out to be so, I don't know.
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SinF (07-28-2016)
#51
I am willing to bet Subaru engineers are in the same boat. This is why we shouldn't blindly follow such recommendations, after all these are just educated guesses and fudge factors all the way down.
There is long-standing industry history of bad predictions with 'lifetime' fluids. To me, ultra-long service intervals are manifestation of the same problem - hubris based on improper testing. You, the owner, end up paying for this.
Fundamentally, there wasn't breakthrough in the oil chemical industry to allow engine oils last that much longer. The last breakthrough was synthetic oils and it was during late 80s. Since then, oils didn't miraculously improve. As such, suddenly increased recommended service intervals should be viewed with suspicion. Especially in context of moving to 0w20 from 5w30.
There is long-standing industry history of bad predictions with 'lifetime' fluids. To me, ultra-long service intervals are manifestation of the same problem - hubris based on improper testing. You, the owner, end up paying for this.
Fundamentally, there wasn't breakthrough in the oil chemical industry to allow engine oils last that much longer. The last breakthrough was synthetic oils and it was during late 80s. Since then, oils didn't miraculously improve. As such, suddenly increased recommended service intervals should be viewed with suspicion. Especially in context of moving to 0w20 from 5w30.
Last edited by SinF; 07-28-2016 at 02:31 PM.
#52
The S-type with either the 3.0, 4.0 or 4.2 engines have had a 10K change interval since their inception in 1999. No requirement or expectation of synthetics.
Even SWMBOs former 2003 Civic had a 10K mile oil change interval using standard dino oil. There's few engines that are more bulletproof and hard working than those little 4 bangers. The fact that even the droopy pant yoots with fart can mufflers can't seem to blow them up says a lot.
I suppose if you had one of those lowly cars you wouldn't change the oil in them either.
#53
I don't know of a single engineer in my class of 50+ who would knowingly sign off on such flaw. Engineers don't set out to release shitty products, it happens despite our best efforts. Once they knew about the problem, Subaru engineers developed a solution (redesign of scraper rings), and then it was DECIDED FOR THEM that it isn't big enough problem to fix for all impacted customers. They only fixed it for a subset of customers who were forceful in getting them to fix it. Since I was pretty much at 'ground zero' of this issue with my very early 2013, I can tell you with authority Subaru didn't discover this issue during development and testing. It was a surprise to them.
What boggles my mind is that they chose to rebuild the engine instead of recommending impacted cars simply switch to 5w30 oil. Doing so would jeopardize their PZEV certification.
Last edited by SinF; 07-28-2016 at 04:00 PM.
#55
That and 5w30 oil wouldn't actually fix the problem since the oil molecules are still the same size. Switching to conventional might help though, but that it wouldn't eliminate the problem since the issue was relatively significant.
#56
Well, based on fact (oil analysis) rather than anecdote and supposition, the oil we are using is still quite good after 3750 miles and 6250 miles. Sometime early next year I will know if the oil is perfectly safe to 10k miles or is starting to get long in the tooth. I don't believe gunkification is dependent on the age of the oil. I believe the deposits build up as quickly when the oil is new as it does when it is old. At temp, new oil will coke up just as quickly as old oil, unless the additive component preventing buildup has been depleted.
#57
Just like how belts get old and crack, and spark plugs degrade. This is a general maintanence item, walnut blast the intake every 30k or whatever and you're fine. The benefits out weigh the extra maintenance needed ...
every 30k for some perceived minor benefit.
Doubly so if a supercharger removal is required before even getting at
the intake.
#58
#59
That is 100% not true. My company for example tests every vehicle to 150k miles for durability and if something fails in testing, it is fixed. If every engine failed immediately after the warranty period ended, sales would take a huge hit. We have a 150k minimum working life expectation for our engines and develop them to that standard.
Like I said 1 in X units before warranty end.
You may test to 150k miles and find the failures.
But, the failures will be at a rate of 1 in Z units to 150k,
and 1 in X units before warranty end.
At that point, with the data in hand, upper management in the sales and financial
side will make a decision. Engineers seldom get a say in sales and financial matters.
As to the the nature of failure rates, it is based on statistical
probabilities.
I have yet to hear of a single mainstream automobile manufacturer
that can or will state publicly that all, that is,
every single engine without exception
will not fail before 150k miles.
So, you can test to 150k miles, and address the failures found
in that 150k miles, but you cannot assert that every engine will
last 150k miles.
Or, are you now asserting that your employer can and will state
that every single engine will last 150k miles? I didn't think so.
Oil change intervals are not affected by cost to the dealership for free services. If the company deems it too expensive they lower or eliminate the amount of free services. Work for an OEM in the quality field before you start making assumptions based on how they work.