Why are F types so heavy?
#41
I see the F Type as more of a GT/Gran Turismo than a pure sports car. And that is what I wanted in a car. Not that Wikipedia is always the most accurate place to find definitions, here are a few quotes that I found in looking up the definition and origin of the term:
A grand tourer (GT) is a type of sports car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes. The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. Grand tourers are most often the coupé derivative of luxury saloons.
The grand touring car concept originated in Europe in the early 1950s,[1] especially with the 1951 introduction of the Lancia Aurelia B20 GT,[3][4] and features notable luminaries of Italian automotive history such as Vittorio Jano,[5]Enzo Ferrari[6][7] and Johnny Lurani.[8]Motorsports became important in the evolution of the grand touring concept, and grand touring entries are important in endurance sports-car racing. The grand touring definition implies material differences in performance, speed, comfort, and amenities between elite cars and those of ordinary motorists.The terms "grand tourer", "gran turismo", "grande routière", and "GT" are among the most misused terms in motoring.[3] The grand touring designation generally "means motoring at speed, in style, safety, and comfort."[18] "Purists define "gran turismo" as the enjoyment, excitement and comfort of open-road touring."[19]
According to Sam Dawson, News Editor of Classic Cars (magazine), "the ideal is of a car with the ability to cross a continent at speed and in comfort yet provide driving thrills when demanded" and it should exhibit the following:[3]
Historically, most GTs have been front-engined with rear-wheel drive, which creates more space for the cabin than mid-mounted engine layouts. Softer suspensions, greater storage, and more luxurious appointments add to their driving appeal.
Grand touring car design evolved from vintage and pre-World War II fast touring cars and streamlined closed sports cars.[2]
Italy developed the first gran turismo cars. The small, light-weight and aerodynamic coupé, named the Berlinetta, originated in the 1930s. A contemporary French concept, known as Grande Routière, emphasized style, elegance, luxury, and gentlemanly transcontinental touring; the Grande Routières were often larger cars than the smaller Italian Gran Turismos.[30] Italian designers saw that compared to a traditional open two-seat sports car, the increase in weight and frontal area of an enclosed cabin for the driver and mechanic (or passenger) could be offset by the benefits of streamlining to reduce drag.[31] Independent carrozzeria (coachbuilders) provided light and flexible fabric coachwork for powerful short-wheelbase fast-touring chassis by manufacturers such as Alfa Romeo. Later, Carrozzeria Touring of Milan would pioneer sophisticated Superleggera (super light-weight) aluminium bodywork, allowing for even more aerodynamic forms.[32] The additional comfort of an enclosed cabin was beneficial for the Mille Miglia (Thousand Miles) road-race held in Italy's often wintry north.[33]
And a few more quotes from another source that pretty much nail it:
First of all let us break down what Grand Tourer means. Firstly is "Grand" this as described by Oxford dictionary is "Magnificent and imposing in appearance, size, or style" The length of the journey or the destination isn't as important as the experience of the drive itself providing you are driving the grandest car and you complete it in style and comfort you can GT, typically a leisure activity for those with plenty of disposable income and a passion for driving. Typically the GT car is driven as fast and for as long as possible before arriving at a critically acclaimed destination where onlookers can marvel at the vehicle.
Alternatives to the leisure drives are the long distance runs, typically the aim here is to drive the nicest car you can afford as fast as possible to reach the other end in style.
The F Type hits all the marks doesn't it ?
A grand tourer (GT) is a type of sports car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes. The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. Grand tourers are most often the coupé derivative of luxury saloons.
The grand touring car concept originated in Europe in the early 1950s,[1] especially with the 1951 introduction of the Lancia Aurelia B20 GT,[3][4] and features notable luminaries of Italian automotive history such as Vittorio Jano,[5]Enzo Ferrari[6][7] and Johnny Lurani.[8]Motorsports became important in the evolution of the grand touring concept, and grand touring entries are important in endurance sports-car racing. The grand touring definition implies material differences in performance, speed, comfort, and amenities between elite cars and those of ordinary motorists.The terms "grand tourer", "gran turismo", "grande routière", and "GT" are among the most misused terms in motoring.[3] The grand touring designation generally "means motoring at speed, in style, safety, and comfort."[18] "Purists define "gran turismo" as the enjoyment, excitement and comfort of open-road touring."[19]
According to Sam Dawson, News Editor of Classic Cars (magazine), "the ideal is of a car with the ability to cross a continent at speed and in comfort yet provide driving thrills when demanded" and it should exhibit the following:[3]
- The engines "should be able to cope with cruising comfortably at the upper limits on all continental roads without drawbacks or loss of usable power."
- "Ideally, the GT car should have been devised by its progenitors as a Grand Tourer, with all associated considerations in mind."
- "It should be able to transport at least two in comfort with their luggage and have room to spare — probably in the form of a two plus two (2+2) seating arrangement."
- The design, both "inside and out, should be geared toward complete control by the driver."
- Its "chassis and suspension provide suitable handling and roadholding on all routes" during travels.
Historically, most GTs have been front-engined with rear-wheel drive, which creates more space for the cabin than mid-mounted engine layouts. Softer suspensions, greater storage, and more luxurious appointments add to their driving appeal.
Grand touring car design evolved from vintage and pre-World War II fast touring cars and streamlined closed sports cars.[2]
Italy developed the first gran turismo cars. The small, light-weight and aerodynamic coupé, named the Berlinetta, originated in the 1930s. A contemporary French concept, known as Grande Routière, emphasized style, elegance, luxury, and gentlemanly transcontinental touring; the Grande Routières were often larger cars than the smaller Italian Gran Turismos.[30] Italian designers saw that compared to a traditional open two-seat sports car, the increase in weight and frontal area of an enclosed cabin for the driver and mechanic (or passenger) could be offset by the benefits of streamlining to reduce drag.[31] Independent carrozzeria (coachbuilders) provided light and flexible fabric coachwork for powerful short-wheelbase fast-touring chassis by manufacturers such as Alfa Romeo. Later, Carrozzeria Touring of Milan would pioneer sophisticated Superleggera (super light-weight) aluminium bodywork, allowing for even more aerodynamic forms.[32] The additional comfort of an enclosed cabin was beneficial for the Mille Miglia (Thousand Miles) road-race held in Italy's often wintry north.[33]
And a few more quotes from another source that pretty much nail it:
First of all let us break down what Grand Tourer means. Firstly is "Grand" this as described by Oxford dictionary is "Magnificent and imposing in appearance, size, or style" The length of the journey or the destination isn't as important as the experience of the drive itself providing you are driving the grandest car and you complete it in style and comfort you can GT, typically a leisure activity for those with plenty of disposable income and a passion for driving. Typically the GT car is driven as fast and for as long as possible before arriving at a critically acclaimed destination where onlookers can marvel at the vehicle.
Alternatives to the leisure drives are the long distance runs, typically the aim here is to drive the nicest car you can afford as fast as possible to reach the other end in style.
The F Type hits all the marks doesn't it ?
Last edited by Dwight Frye; 04-02-2021 at 07:25 AM.
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#43
Stolen. That is the first time in recorded history Porsche and smaller margins have been used in the same sentence. Porsche has the highest profit margins in the industry reported to be 20%.
Lightness is not now and has never been a Jaguar value. The comparison to Lotus is useful. Colin Chapman was a genius and that was what it took to build those incredibly light weight cars. It takes a lot less effort and talent to just employ more metal.
Lightness is not now and has never been a Jaguar value. The comparison to Lotus is useful. Colin Chapman was a genius and that was what it took to build those incredibly light weight cars. It takes a lot less effort and talent to just employ more metal.
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JagGuardian (04-05-2021)
#44
After owning a Jaguar always since 1968, and having two now,
WHY ARE JAGUARS SO HARD TO WORK ON, AND WHY HAVE THEY HAD TERRIBLE RELIABILITY RATINGS FOREVER?
BECAUSE they are meant to be owned for less than 5 years. (That's from a relative, a Jag 'expert' worker at Jaguar.)
WHY are they so hard to work on? The simple answer. They are not designed to be worked on, just to be good for 3 years..
WHY ARE JAGUARS SO HARD TO WORK ON, AND WHY HAVE THEY HAD TERRIBLE RELIABILITY RATINGS FOREVER?
BECAUSE they are meant to be owned for less than 5 years. (That's from a relative, a Jag 'expert' worker at Jaguar.)
WHY are they so hard to work on? The simple answer. They are not designed to be worked on, just to be good for 3 years..
My goodness - you sound a bit angry. I'll have to remember that Jags are meant to be owned for less than 5 years. The strange thing is that last evening I was driving my wife's 2002 X-Type, which has been in daily, hard use by us for the last 16 years or so, and which sits outside 24/7/365. It runs like a new car, is a joy to drive (manual shift), has perfect leather and wood despite the litter inside, and in those 16 or so years has had 3, yes 3 very minor mechanical repairs: oxygen sensor, water pump and a nylon gear on the driver's seat up/down motor. And the 2005 model year which you suggest was one of the worst...let's see....my 2005 X-Type Sportwagon, which is my (non-pandemic) daily use car has had exactly zero, yup, zero repairs or problems in the last 10 years (my ownership period)....having restored many Jaguars (both mechanically and cosmetically) I can tell you that the nonsense (with respect) in your note can be countered by one personal anecdote: in the Jaguar factory at Coventry in April 2003, as I watched hides being inspected and selected for cutting, the inspector put an X on a hide after finding a fault on the underside; asked why that hide was rejected, he showed us an almost unnoticeable scarring on the unfinished side and his comment was (and this is verbatim) that if that part of the hide were cut so that the scarred area ended up in a stressed position, "in a decade or so" (sic) something might start to show through on the finished side.
Now, it is true that in modern cars (not only Jaguars) mechanical parts are replaced rather than repaired and there is a simple economic reason for that, whether we like it or not. I'm glad I did not know about the poor quality and intended short life span of Jaguars two days ago as I was driving my 55 year old (to clarify: fifty-five year old) Mark 2 (talk about heavy....) - whose engine has never been touched and whose interior is completely original except for the headliner. I would have been very nervous. Instead, in my ignorance of the facts you present, I was delighting in the way it ran (fast), the sound of the engine and the beauty of the interior. Well, you live and learn.
55 year-old leather and wood:
And the 55 year old engine - never repaired (I have all the records - and that is the York AC compressor dealer-installed in 1966 and it works just fine):
Last edited by sov211; 04-02-2021 at 12:49 PM.
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