Why so Slow...?
#41
A better question is why hasn't GM allowed Dragy uploads for the C8. They know its going to happen. Especially after Edmunds said the car doesn't even come close to GMs claims.
Price as tested: $83,825
Date of test: 10/28/2019
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Odometer: 3,640
Powertrain: 6.2L V8 | 8-Speed Auto-Clutch Manual | RWD
Horsepower: 495 hp @ 6,450 rpm
Torque: 470 lb-ft @ 5,150 rpm
Weight: 3644 lbs
2020 Corvette Acceleration
Test Result
0-60 mph 3.4 sec
In the Edmunds video, they essentially admitted to relaxing their standards even to publish 3.4 secs.
Last edited by RacerX; 02-02-2020 at 02:21 PM.
#43
The answer, in a nut shell, is the F-Type's Dragy 3D-verified 2.85 sec 0-60 (VAP 2016 R) and 3.27 sec (stock 2016 R) is not slow. Certainly not for a great GT.
Jaguar created a lot of confusion by including OEM all season passenger car tires. Summer street slicks like Cup 2s are the norm on cars of this HP class. Thus, the 3.9 sec manufacturer spec and Jeremy Clarkson riding side saddle.
Last edited by RacerX; 02-02-2020 at 02:33 PM.
#44
The OP's question was, why so slow?
The answer, in a nut shell, is the F-Type's Dragy 3D-verified 2.85 sec 0-60 (VAP 2016 R) and 3.27 sec (stock 2016 R) is not slow. Certainly not for a great GT.
Jaguar created a lot of confusion by including OEM all season passenger car tires. Summer street slicks like Cup 2s are the norm on cars of this HP class. Thus, the 3.9 sec manufacturer spec and Jeremy Clarkson riding side saddle.
The answer, in a nut shell, is the F-Type's Dragy 3D-verified 2.85 sec 0-60 (VAP 2016 R) and 3.27 sec (stock 2016 R) is not slow. Certainly not for a great GT.
Jaguar created a lot of confusion by including OEM all season passenger car tires. Summer street slicks like Cup 2s are the norm on cars of this HP class. Thus, the 3.9 sec manufacturer spec and Jeremy Clarkson riding side saddle.
#45
Been reading AutoWeek, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track magazines for over 30 yrs.
Never heard of Dragy before.
But I stand corrected, as Car & Driver mag has both 2020 models: F-type: 3.4 seconds & C8 Vette: 2.8 seconds
https://www.caranddriver.com/jaguar/f-type-r-svr
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...60-mph-tested/
Never heard of Dragy before.
But I stand corrected, as Car & Driver mag has both 2020 models: F-type: 3.4 seconds & C8 Vette: 2.8 seconds
https://www.caranddriver.com/jaguar/f-type-r-svr
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...60-mph-tested/
#46
Been reading AutoWeek, Car & Driver, Motor Trend, Road & Track magazines for over 30 yrs.
Never heard of Dragy before.
But I stand corrected, as Car & Driver mag has both 2020 models: F-type: 3.4 seconds & C8 Vette: 2.8 seconds
https://www.caranddriver.com/jaguar/f-type-r-svr
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...60-mph-tested/
Never heard of Dragy before.
But I stand corrected, as Car & Driver mag has both 2020 models: F-type: 3.4 seconds & C8 Vette: 2.8 seconds
https://www.caranddriver.com/jaguar/f-type-r-svr
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a2...60-mph-tested/
In my experiemce about half the people at any given drag strip are using Dragy, and most of the test and tuners. Its more accurate, data rich and cheaper than vBox and embeds the DA and G chart in the run record itself. In fact, I was large speedway a few Saturdays ago where I could not get a validated 0-60 or 1320 run because of the track's down slope. So I personally don't believe anything but a validated Dragy run. Certainly not advertising.
Last edited by RacerX; 02-02-2020 at 05:02 PM.
#47
Still rides/drives like a Datsun. I wouldn’t own one at any price. Yes... superior inline performance, but does that qualify it as a super car?
#48
RE: Dragy:
Public information, published by an independent company, uploaded by private individuals using their personal cars: How can GM block uploads? There's obviously something I'm missing. This did prompt me to pop in to a Corvette board and got rapidly disgusted by the few rational people responding to a flood of stupid comments by knuckleheads. Apparently, moving the engine is a sign of the apocalypse. Sigh.
No confusion. You gave the answer yourself. It's a GT, not a sports car. A GT needs to be able to take me on a weekend getaway, and if I hit a patch of cold weather I'd rather not end up in a ravine.
The answer, in a nut shell, is the F-Type's Dragy 3D-verified 2.85 sec 0-60 (VAP 2016 R) and 3.27 sec (stock 2016 R) is not slow. Certainly not for a great GT.
Jaguar created a lot of confusion by including OEM all season passenger car tires. Summer street slicks like Cup 2s are the norm on cars of this HP class.
Jaguar created a lot of confusion by including OEM all season passenger car tires. Summer street slicks like Cup 2s are the norm on cars of this HP class.
#49
Because it is the only 3D GPS-verified database with millions of global uploads from actual owners doing the best they can. It's proven accurate to better than 1/100th of a second, it is public, and basically impossible to cheat because the charted g profile of the run needs to match other users' acceleration profiles. Everything else is trash talk, inaccurate, and/or paid advertising.
With that, the device itself is great. And when used in conjunction with an actual scientific process, is good. Random people using the device? Not scientific.
We'll see numbers vary based on conditions and surfaces but we'll see 2.8 - 2.9's with the Z51 package once they start arriving in people's hands. This is being done under $100k (base with Z51 package is $66k), under 500hp, and with 2wd. Not multi-differential magic which increases complexity. Just basic physics of weight placement of the engine. You may not like the C8. I'm not buying one myself, but it's a marvel for it's price for performance.
Last edited by Mahjik; 02-02-2020 at 10:54 PM.
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OzXFR (02-02-2020)
#50
They aren't blocking anything, C8's having gone into production yet. The few that are on the roads today are the pre-production vehicles given to GM staff to drive around. Production is suppose to start officially start this month (even though the official first production C8 was just auctioned off about 2 weeks ago for $3 million).
#51
Dragy is not scientific. If you understand the scientific process, the mere thought of random people uploading Dragy data is the anti-pattern of a a scientific approach. It's random people doing random tests in random conditions. There are a whole slew of parameters that are not the same for every test and many test variables that you cannot identify via an OBDII port. At best, Dragy data is "observation data" but it is definitely not scientific data.
With that, the device itself is great. And when used in conjunction with an actual scientific process, is good. Random people using the device? Not scientific.
They aren't blocking anything, C8's having gone into production yet. The few that are on the roads today are the pre-production vehicles given to GM staff to drive around. Production is suppose to start officially start this month (even though the official first production C8 was just auctioned off about 2 weeks ago for $3 million).
First, it was 3.2 sec and they admitted they only had 91 octane rather than the recommend 93:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NphnnjQDa8w
We'll see numbers vary based on conditions and surfaces but we'll see 2.8 - 2.9's with the Z51 package once they start arriving in people's hands. This is being done under $100k (base with Z51 package is $66k), under 500hp, and with 2wd. Not multi-differential magic which increases complexity. Just basic physics of weight placement of the engine. You may not like the C8. I'm not buying one myself, but it's a marvel for it's price for performance.
With that, the device itself is great. And when used in conjunction with an actual scientific process, is good. Random people using the device? Not scientific.
They aren't blocking anything, C8's having gone into production yet. The few that are on the roads today are the pre-production vehicles given to GM staff to drive around. Production is suppose to start officially start this month (even though the official first production C8 was just auctioned off about 2 weeks ago for $3 million).
First, it was 3.2 sec and they admitted they only had 91 octane rather than the recommend 93:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NphnnjQDa8w
We'll see numbers vary based on conditions and surfaces but we'll see 2.8 - 2.9's with the Z51 package once they start arriving in people's hands. This is being done under $100k (base with Z51 package is $66k), under 500hp, and with 2wd. Not multi-differential magic which increases complexity. Just basic physics of weight placement of the engine. You may not like the C8. I'm not buying one myself, but it's a marvel for it's price for performance.
And as you point out, it appears they are using OBD data which is garbage anyway. Anyone who's used OBD for" performance measurement" knows it not even ballpark. Torque Pro measures my car at 1200 horsepower from OBD data, about double the 560 WHP dyno.
This is why the gold standard and all that matters that is Dragy or vBox, but vBox is unverified so you can go downhill and the DA is not recorded. It's completely unclear what, how, where, or why magazines say what they say and it rarely matches reality.
The only thing we know is GM's 2.8 sec claim was wrong. There are still no Dragy results for the car despite many user reviews, hand-picked by Chevy with restrictions on what they can say or not say.
Again, this is not performance measurement, it is marketing/advertising. Thats why the Daytona last place finish was so interesting, because it was the first time the car was measured objectively.
I never said I don't like the C8. I think GM's marketing strategy has been a disaster for the car, turning very respectable results into big disappointments, and requiring people to take their word for performance claims being rapidly dialed back in chunks equating to 100s of HP, long after orders were placed.
This is what physics models say, as a reality check:
3644 lbs
DCT
RWD
0 to 60 mph in 2.8 secs requires 673 HP
3644 lbs
DCT
RWD
0 to 60 mph in 3.524 secs requires 495 HP
Jag did exactly the opposite. To the point of frustration, frankly, but no one doubts Jags claims.
Last edited by RacerX; 02-03-2020 at 04:56 AM.
#53
#54
I never said I don't like the C8. I think GM's marketing strategy has been a disaster for the car, turning very respectable results into big disappointments, and requiring people to take their word for performance claims being rapidly dialed back in chunks equating to 100s of HP, long after orders were placed.
Stock Z51 tires.
#56
For fair comparison, trying to compare the Two 2 door coupes with absolutely no options, just base V8 vehicles with destination fee:
$59,995 2020 Corvette Stingray Coupe (6.2L V8 8-speed Auto w/1LT)
$102,825 2020 Jaguar F-Type R Coupe (5.0L V8 Supercharger AWD 8-speed Automatic)
For the $42K difference in 2020 base pricing, with factory tires, all stock factory equipment right off the dealer lot.
Forget the 0-60 times, dragy times, What's the real world G-Forces as I step on the gas when accelerating as the light turns green...?
$59,995 2020 Corvette Stingray Coupe (6.2L V8 8-speed Auto w/1LT)
$102,825 2020 Jaguar F-Type R Coupe (5.0L V8 Supercharger AWD 8-speed Automatic)
For the $42K difference in 2020 base pricing, with factory tires, all stock factory equipment right off the dealer lot.
Forget the 0-60 times, dragy times, What's the real world G-Forces as I step on the gas when accelerating as the light turns green...?
#57
There are no "user reviews" really. Just like with the Supra, GM has invited "car journalist" to preview the car and generate reviews. The real reviews will start when the production vehicles start shipping.
You are just making your arguments look worse by continuing to relate race cars which have zero to do with production cars.
You are going to be quite surprised when the production cars start hitting the floors.
You are just making your arguments look worse by continuing to relate race cars which have zero to do with production cars.
You are going to be quite surprised when the production cars start hitting the floors.
Stock Z51 tires.
#58
#59
Regardless of the dirty politics, the old-guard is simply not effective anymore. And in a strange twist no longer trusted. We have declined awards by big media!!
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RacerX (02-03-2020)
#60
Oh, NavyBlue, maybe you were asking about longitudinal Gs. Dragy charts every run to aid in verification of gearing, etc. I don't like that the Dragy app will verify a run with up to 1.00% downslope, seems it should require level or better. Some 1320 tracks I've run fail to verify even with that leeway.
Here's Dragy's leading F-Type's chart. It is VAP tuned on MP4S with a verified 2.86 sec 0-60.
Here is a stock R. It has a verified 3.27 sec 0-60. Checkout the up slope.
For fun, here is the fastest stock, RME, RWD, DCT, 720 HP, 3168 lb McLaren 720S. It has a verified 0-60 of 2.85 secs.
The C8's reported 0.99 max long g is more proof the car complies with the laws of physics and is not on the same planet as 2.8 secs.
Here's Dragy's leading F-Type's chart. It is VAP tuned on MP4S with a verified 2.86 sec 0-60.
Here is a stock R. It has a verified 3.27 sec 0-60. Checkout the up slope.
For fun, here is the fastest stock, RME, RWD, DCT, 720 HP, 3168 lb McLaren 720S. It has a verified 0-60 of 2.85 secs.
The C8's reported 0.99 max long g is more proof the car complies with the laws of physics and is not on the same planet as 2.8 secs.
Last edited by RacerX; 02-03-2020 at 03:35 PM.