Open Question to Owners of Jaguars, Tell me about your experiences with New Car Sales and Warranty Service.

As background I have over 40 years of continuous ownership of Jaguar Cars and Jaguar Cars INC. The difference is between the original company started by Sir William Lyons and the post privatization company with Ford and now Tata.

I am a loyal and enthusiastic owner of the marque and always speak highly of it to all that ask about my cars. My interest is in fairness and being made whole in my situation.

I am in negotiations with Jaguar currently of because of the poor and incomplete warranty attempts on my 2003 S-type. There is an additional aspect with regard to major warranty claims including an engine change on my serial number before it was delivered as new to me. The Certificate of Origin was also dated 15 months after the car was shipped from England. It was at 4 different dealerships as documented by the dealer direct warranty system used by Jaguar. One dealer sold the unit to another as a used car as I have found a used car sale sticker in the vehicle under the rear seat. Then magically a new C of O appears dated 15 months after the car is in the US. It has one assignment on it from the Used car / New Jaguar dealer to the dealer from which I purchased the car new.

I bought a service manual for my new 1970 E-type after the first service event back in the day and still have access to JTIS and GTR as I like to do my own work.

What started my problem was warranty replacement of a radiator on this car has now caused the transmission cooler lines to rub on the chassis and causing a leak. The distance pieces installed new were not replaced during the radiator replacement thus causing this problem, Not a Jaguar design flaw but an installation flaw from a warranty repair. Also Transmission was over filled by more than a liter as I recovered it while attempting to add more fluid and assessing the potential damage. The car is now at a dealer and a MPI has been done to advise Jaguar of the state of this problem.

This car is 11 years old, it has none, no door dings on either side, the interior appears and smell as new. The original battery is still in the car. My stewardship of the car has been impeccable.

So you have the picture. I love this car and the company that started it all. All the prior problems were found while documenting the unfortunate incident to make the case for warranty assistance.

I prefer to proceed with Jaguar for a non litigious manner to find a satisfactory conclusion to this problem. My research indicates that in most cases if a buy back occurs it costs the manufacturer more than 300 % of the original purchase price.

Robert Phelps
Charter Captain Typed in various Citation aircraft

I have been international published as a Motorsports Photojournalist in such Publications as Racecar Engineering, Jaguar Magazine, Jaguar Racing (former F1 Site), JCNA, Motorsport.com and many others. I have written about Jaguar, Design, Racing Heritage

 

Just out of vulgar curiosity, where are you located?

 

I may have missed it, but....what exactly are you asking Jaguar to do ?

As for the sales discrepancies isn't 10-11 years a bit late to pursue that issue?

I don't want to sound unsympathetic but it seems a bit odd for a life long Jaguar fan to appear on this forum out of the clear blue sky apparently for the sole purpose of airing complaints regarding warranty and sales issue on an 11-year old car.

What's up ? Why are you telling us this?



Cheers
DD

 

A joke?

 

First I'm from the Great state of Virginia, currently in Florida for my vocation.

Second no joke.....Fraud is a serious problem today. Regardless of when done.

I have been a proud owner, racer, restorer and lover of Jaguar's efforts probably longer than most of you have been on the planet. In researching the defective factory warranty service, I discovered major problems with the car's origin.

If you are not aware, I will explain. Jaguar built this car in early 2003 and it was shipped to a dealer and soon after the dealer packet arrived, the Certificate of Origin also made its way to the dealership. Each car has one CO that is generated soon after the car's birth it then gets to the dealer so it can be sold and delivered. The CO is then sent to the motor vehicle department in your state and forever more the vehicle is transferred from owner to owner as a titled car. It has only 1 CO. In a rare case if a CO is destroyed by accident it can be replaced. Otherwise if a car is transferred from one Jaguar dealer to another, the back of the CO has an assignment each time. As the car only had one assignment, how do you explain 17 warranty claims at 4 different dealers including an undisclosed engine change?

There are many more problems with warranty service and the CO. I just wanted to give a short image of the problem.

Doug your comments are more than unsympathetic and that is all I need say. If you were facing the repair costs involved and done nothing but care for it with a watchful eye, you might have a different outlook. I have the JTIS and GTR and training at Jaguar Academy and hold an A & P license. I have restored, repaired and maintained my Jaguars since my first E-type in 1970.

Not my Rodeo !

My Question still remains for those to whom it may apply: Are you satisfied with the factory service on offer and was your car transferred to you with all prior service disclosed?

Robert Phelps

I've been through Sleepy Hollow, Have You ?

 

It boils down to two things and their consequences.

1. A certificate of ownership question. Unless the car is somehow going to become a classic collectible, it is irrelevant.

2. A leaking transmission cooler line, apparently blamed on some missing "distance pieces" whatever they may be. Chafed power steering, transmission and oil cooler lines have occurred to other owners. And after a decade, most members here shrug and call it a maintenance item. On the other hand, if some bracket or retainer was left out, the fault lies with the particular person performing the work and recourse lies with the shop where the work was done. Jaguar has no responsibility in that regard.

If someone claims to be intimately familiar with the mechanicals of a particular vehicle, then the question arises as to why the problem was not attended to prior to the hose chafing through.

Finally, the post seems to be an attempt to "leverage social media" to put pressure on an unrelated third party to take some desired action. It usually does not garner much sympathy on an enthusiasts' forum such as JF.

 

To your points

Even during oil changes and inspection under the car in the area of the chassis / cooler line (Aluminum Not hose) interference was impossible to see until highlighted by ZF fluid under 4 bars of pressure. A time bomb for sure. Cause poor workmanship by factory authorized service center not done in accordance with JTIS/GTR manual.

The problems with the CO are important with regard to the sale of a new car, offered as a new car, not as car misrepresented with 17 major warranty items done including an undisclosed engine change, before offered as a retail sale. I asked if there was any service or warranty issues before purchasing the vehicle. The answer to my question was no, even though all was available through Dealer Direct Warranty to all dealers.

You have responded to something clearly outside the scope of my question and my snapshot was to give an example. I love my car and want to see it repaired to spec regardless of the outcome with Jaguar. As far as Social Media is concerned, If my intention was to cause Jaguar any problems I wouldn't have brought it here but to mainstream media. So no sinister intent here. Rest your brain.


Robert
All photos Copyright WRP III 2002-2013

 

Very odd, yes. How many miles were on it when you took delivery?

It isn't unusual to see a couple warranty claims on a VIN prior to delivery to the first owner. Sometimes faults are discovered while the car is in inventory. And sometimes a car is used as a dealer demonstrator (thus the question about miles at delivery) and more faults are repaired.

But, 17 repair claims at four differenet dealerships is odd. I can speculate on a few things, including warranty fraud....but that's all it is. Speculation.






I wish you all the luck in the world but I wouldn't get my hopes up too high for warranty assistance at this stage of the game. Jaguar, as you should know (and probably do), does not have a particularly favorable track record for assisting out-of-warranty owners. Even if they were known to be generous, assistance on a 10-11 year old car is quite a stretch.


As for my lack of sympathy, well, consider the circumstances mentioned in my earlier posting. Judging from the other replies I'm not alone. The thing is, you have no history here. A person with your experience, credentials, and love of Jaguars could have been a helpful and valued contributing member here for years but, for whatever reasons, you decided against doing so. Instead, you've made a decision to become a member only to air your grievances as though this was a consumer advocacy group. That's not starting off on the right foot.

Good luck,

DD

 

Doug

As most of my experience is in the real world and with my busy schedule, My finding this site is quite by accident and regardless of the time frame in which I found it, I am here now and more than willing to share.

I do resent your continued characterization of my reason for joining as simply a way air dirty laundry. Nothing could be further from the actual intent. Education and knowledge are power in the right hands. If I can direct someone to avoid the pitfall or recognize it earlier, then I have performed a service. If you don't suffer from any of the above mentioned maladies, Please find another area to contribute where your comments may have some actual use.

Robert

 

If it's fraud, isn't that a police matter?
For a civil matter, what's the statute of limitation?
Even if you were to file and win, how much damage have you suffered that you can expect to be paid for?
Is this site the right place? (I doubt it.)

BTW, as has been posted, any repair work done wrongly will surely be the fault of the firm/person who did the work and so you'd sue them - not Jaguar.

Good luck but over here the above would be impractical with low certainty of a useful outcome.

 

So, let me be sure I understand what is going on here.

A guy with six (6) posts is telling a guy with 7,000+ that a. he (the guy with six (6) posts) is here, and if anyone doesn't like it, they can pound sand, and b. that the guy with 7,000 + posts should go post somewhere else.

I can think of other boards where such behavior would bring out the Ban Hammer. I'm in to see what happens here.

I presume the Moderators are watching this thread.

 

More to the point, you have been apparently happy with the car for over a decade and now some bug has gotten under your bonnet and you are demanding compensation for one item that happened at the outset and another that has existed for a number of years. Clearly unreasonable.

If you wanted it understood that the leak was in a aluminum part of the circuit, you should have stated it clearly. It is again irrelevant in any case because aluminum lines have also been burst by chafing in cases seen on this forum.

A couple of weeks ago, an experienced member had that very thing happen. He didn't write a letter to Jaguar, nor did he complain about the cost of the fix. He arranged for his father-in-law to weld the line and put it back in service.

And he added value to the forum by posting pictures to the forum of the problem and the fix, as he did when he had a leaking fuel rail requiring a homebrew fix. Again in that case he relied on his own skills as well as contributions of ideas as to possible fixes from other members. Not once did he suggest that Jaguar North America ought to get involved.

 

On a separate note, there are no "distance pieces" listed in JEPC for the V8 models regardless of VIN break. There are clamps and brackets but no "distance pieces".

My brain is far too tired to also check the V6 or Diesel models. soz.

 

I don't believe you have a case, but I'll answer your question....

As has been previously stated, Jaguar's history for out-of-warranty assistance even to its most loyal customers is sadly lacking....

Our 2005 S-Type's transmission oil cooler lines are weeping at 78,500 miles. I discovered this last Friday while doing a routine oil & filter change / tire rotation. I have not had cause to be under this car since last October, so this slight weep may have been going on for quite some time....

This issue is a known design flaw. Rather than installing still-flawed new OEM lines and hoses back on the car, I'm going to cut out both flawed hose connections, go with high-quality hydraulic hoses instead, and secure them with high-quality hydraulic hose clamps. Problem permanently solved. Will I pursue Jaguar asking them to cover the cost of this repair? No. I would be wasting my time....

As far as my experience with Jaguar Warranty Service on this car is concerned, it was usually mediocre. We had seven months left on the factory warranty when we purchased this car in December 2008, and I rode that warranty like a racehorse until it expired. I had to battle for some of the warranty repairs (new throttle body required after my wife's limp mode incident in May 2009 is the best example of that). Once the local dealership learned I was a relentless bulldog, they quickly realized their lives would be much more pleasant if they would step up and honor the warranty without making me fight them first. I lost on just one warranty issue - they refused to replace the spotted and tarnished metal window trim that is a well-known defect on these S-Types. I decided not to spend money on new trim because periodic waxing makes it look normal, but I still kick myself for not escalating this minor item. I was busy with other things at the time and allowed the clock to run out. Completely my fault for not following through....

Good luck to you. Knowing how our local Jaguar dealership tends to nickel and dime its customers when it can get away with it, I think you're in for an uphill battle....

 

Lads

I'm sad to see so many not respond to the question, but still have some sort of comment about my situation. That was and continues not to be the point.

I' going to ask the moderator to close and remove the post as I will no longer view or respond to it. You may continue amongst yourselves if you like.

Your attempts to make yourselves feel superior by demeaning me embarrasses you.

This is perhaps not a venue suited to my temperament. To those with genuine comments I wish you the best. The owner base is clearly different than 40 years ago.

Cheers
Robert

 

Sorry we didn't live up to your expectations Robert but you posted in a public forum so you must expect to see all different opinions those who agree with you and those who don't. That's just the nature of the beast.
I have to admit I'm not clear on the details of your problem, you bought this car new in 2003?
When did you discover the discrepancies in the paperwork.
When was the radiator replaced and have you discussed this with whoever did the work?
As has been stated failure of these pipes are not uncommon, so are you certain that the rad work was the cause?
As for dismissing the entire owner base as being "different" presumably inferior to when you "joined the club", that's just ludicrous.

 

Look in the mirror.

There is only one person posting to this thread with all manner of self promoting puffery.

To wit:

and

As for controlling threads, on occasion the administration might close a thread that has run its course, but it is exceedingly rare that a thread is deleted outright.

First rule of posting on the internet ... consider every utterance to be permanently and publicly visible.

Most of the membership will be more than happy to get back to the regularly scheduled programming.

 

No. It's just that internet forums are quite a bit more accessible to the hoi polloi than the rarified surroundings of a private club where a few self selected keepers of the faith can feel smug about their own self gratifying pronouncements about outsiders.

 

Robert, I wish you no ill will.

However, please review your original posting. IMHO it doesn't really have the tone of helpfulness to others. You stated outright, at the outset of your remarks, that your intent was "...fairness and to be made whole". The rest of your remarks left me (and perhaps others) wondering "Where's he going with this?".

The "tell me about your experiences...." request sounded like a fishing expedition to me, to be honest.

Over the last 15 years I've belonged to numerous Jaguar forums (total post count, 30,000 perhaps?), written Jaguar tech articles for JCNA and various clubs, judged many concours events, volunteered untold hours helping Jag owners over the phone, made 'roadside assistance' calls to fellow Jag owners, and numerous other things. So, I have a pretty good idea of what "intending to be helpful" looks like and sounds like.

And, if proven wrong on any issue or topic, I'm always the first to admit as much.

With your background I'm sure you have tons to offer (No sarcasm here. I mean it!) If I've misjudged, then you're continued participation and contributions will prove how wrong I was.

For my part I'm 100% willing to put the entire matter behind us and start fresh with your next posting on a new topic.

You have my absolute sworn word that I'll turn off my "cynical switch".

Cheers
DD

 

Ok, so this thread is going nowhere fast.

The OP has asked that it be removed, but as most of you know thats not something we do very lightly here.
I will leave the thread as is, but close it to end this discussion.

Note - I get the impression that the OP isn't overly impressed by us, but hope that opinion may yet change, as has happened in the past.

I know the memberbase will give him every opportunity should he decide to continue using the site.

Thanks