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Ok I’m back.
That distributor is the worst location ever.
Changed contacts and condenser.
Was now firing again, and finally ran.
Sound like it did before. But now I have a timing light.
Is it even possible for a car to fire and run when off by 34 degrees from its target?!!
The 240 is spec’d at 12 deg BTDC.
Mine is firing at 46. Off by 34 degrees. I used the advance feature if the light to adjust until the pointer aligned with the targeted 12.... and I needed to advance by 34 deg to get there. See pics.
Will changing now to an electronic contact set resolve the timing, or do I need to rotate the distributor? Or did this thing jump chain at some point (seems like a lot of jump).
Changed the plugs too after it ran (#2 was carboned up a lot more than the rest but I’ve seen cars run with worse).
Thoughts?
This is where it’s firing on #6 (front of car).<br/>The closest mark is 10 BTDC. The farthest is zero.<br/>I need to be at 12.<br/>I’m at 46 BTDC.
Had to advance light timing by 34 in order to align with the 12 BTDC mark.
You need to use the spark plug at the back of the engine _ that's NUMBER 1, to time the engine for spark, NOT number 6.
And if it ran like it did before, why do you think the ignition timing is out ?
The distributor isn't lose... why would the ignition timing be out ?
And when you say it ran like it did before, was it running bad before ?
If you're timing is off by 34 degrees, then you're reading something wrong and/or it's not hooked up right.
No engine will run if the ignition timing is out 34 degrees.
When you put the pick up on number 1 at the back of the engine, be sure it's not interfering with another spark plug wire.
My timing light's pick up is not long enough to reach and shine the strobe light on the harmonic dampener, so I have to use a mirror _ it's quite awkward for me.
I just set it up statically and time it by ear for the most part, but I would not recommend this method in your case.
Also....
The car has to be warmed up and at idle, not running at 1270 rpm.
The distributor weights are advancing the spark at that speed, but still shouldn't be at 34 degrees.
And no, the timing chain didn't jump, the chain drives the valve train and has nothing to do with the ignition timing.
The ignition timing (distributor) is driven by a bevel gear at the front of the crank _ it's a permanent part of the crank shaft and can't move _ no timing chain(s) involved.
Something else to check and consider....
Be sure and hook up the leads properly for the timing light for a positive ground car, RED still goes to the positive side if the battery or any metal part of the body.
The BLACK lead goes to the negative side of the battery.
The thing to consider is that some of these fancy digital timing lights don't like positive ground cars because the spark is jumping from the ground electrode of the spark plug to the centre.
On a negative ground car (North American), this is just the opposite, the spark jumps from the centre electrode to the ground electrode.
Try reversing the pick up, but I don't think this is your 34 degree problem.
Put the pick-up lead at NUMBER 1 at the back of the engine closest the fire wall.
Be sure to disconnect the vacuum advance when timing the engine.
Plug the vacuum line off on the manifold when timing an engines ignition.
I don't think Timing lights existed when these cars were built, that's why there are no instructions on their use in the manual.
Check the static timing, this will tell you if the timing marks are off, it is possible for the damper to deteriorate and the timing marks move in relation to the crank, or a later damper is fitted which has timing marks in a different place.
Set the static timing, and put a mark on the damper with some tippex or white paint, see what that tells you. The static timing will not lie, so check that before you start moving anything else.
It may be possible to run a car at 34 deg BTDC, but this would be at full vacuum advance and not at idle, you would be pre-igniting the fuel with possible engine failure and would have terrible knock at idle even if it ran at all, you are at that point trying to hit the piston back down the cylinder against it's direction of rotation !
Jeff has pretty well covered most things in his post.
Just a comment on using a timing light with positive ground systems?
My timing light (Craftsman and old) is powered by 12VDC and normally you clip the leads on the battery and use the light. Now with positive ground the only way to use a timing light of that style is to have a 12V battery/power supply separate from the car to power the timing light. The spark wire connection does not care what polarity the spark is so it will all work as designed with this method.
I have a small bench power supply that can output 12VDC so I use that instead of an additional battery.
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Just a comment on using a timing light with positive ground systems?
My timing light (Craftsman and old) is powered by 12VDC and normally you clip the leads on the battery and use the light. Now with positive ground the only way to use a timing light of that style is to have a 12V battery/power supply separate from the car to power the timing light. The spark wire connection does not care what polarity the spark is so it will all work as designed with this method.
I have a small bench power supply that can output 12VDC so I use that instead of an additional battery.
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That's interesting, I have seen that said before, I am not sure why it makes a difference, but interesting advice none the less, and obviously it works.
That's interesting, I have seen that said before, I am not sure why it makes a difference, but interesting advice none the less, and obviously it works.
Yes, I've also read that...
In theory it shouldn't make any difference, 12 volts is 12volts....
Weather it come s from the car battery or an external source.
What ever works though.
I agree with your theory, but it may actually be to do with the spark as you alluded to before, it may be that the pick up which is probably either a Hall effect switch or coil may see the spark relative to -ve and by using an independent supply issues with positive earth on certain guns may be overcome.
I'd have to think about this, the spark will jump from say 22000 V to 12v rather than 22000v to 0v I think, if that is the case does this interfere with the pick up as the spark is jumping to the positive side of the light ? With an independent supply the pick up sees a spike relative to 0v. I guess it depends upon the pick up design and how that relates to the supply for the light ?
Hi guys... y timing light worked with positive ground fine (flashed, and the pic showed the read outs well).
Okay, so back to business... couple things.
First, though I got it running and it sounded fine, it turns out when I started it this morning itjs idling fast... like 2200 rpm, and won’t slow down even as the engine warms. See pic if tach with edge of water temp gauge.
When I drive it, it has no power and has difficulty accelerating... not like it used to be at all, which was an excellent drive. What would cause this? The distributor is exactly where it was - I did not rotate at all. I’m using the choke properly, and itjs typically needed to start, and needs to be removed as she warms up. Perhaps I need to try this static timing thing, but need to know how / what.
Secondly, there are a lot of vacuum related items... I should have to suspect anything, but should I, would that cause anything, and is there an easy way to check? (I do happen to have a vacuum gauge built into the fuel pressure gauge I bought, but no clue where I’d check, or if I should bother (don’t neec any red herrings).
Note: I also including a pic of the fairly well detailed Haynes service manual from way back when... it may be incorrect, but it does state cylinder 6 as the front cylinder to use for the 12 deg BTDC check. I know these manuals can make errors, but that seems like a serious one to get wrong. Today Haynex is more for the most basic use only, but I was pretty impressed with this older edition.
I'll have to check my manual, and verify that. It's sure odd why they would use number 1 at the back, then change to #6 to time the ignition.
If this is so, then the timing marks on your damper may very well coincide with #6.
As for the fast idle and power loss.
Either the choke is not coming off and or you have a vacuum leak.
If there is lots of black smoke when you drive it, then the choke is stuck.
It sounds like a vacuum leak somewhere _ at this point.
Don't touch the distributor, this new problem of high idle and loss of power isn't caused by the ignition.
At least that's the way I see it now.
Does it have an automatic choke or manual ?
Does it have SU carbs or Solex downdraft carbs ?
If you don't know, take a photo o the engine bay.
EDIT:
Just had a thought, you may have pulled a vacuum line off, replacing the points and condenser ???
Maybe the vacuum advance, although, that shouldn't cause a serious vacuum leak.
I’d like to thank you John and Jeff for all your help to date - it’s very much appreciated and I should state that more often.
I have a manual choke. I use the choke regularly and adjust is she warms up and go by sound and feel.
And the SU carbs.
Check the vacuum connection to the distributor, also check that the throttle linkage is returning to its stop, and make sure nothing is jamming the choke cable, just in case you have disturbed something whilst changing the contacts etc.
Do you have another fuel filter, I see that you don't have one in the glass filter bowl
I checked all the vacuum lines. Saw none out. Cable and chokemoperate physically fine. For the heck of it I pulled off the hose from the distributor... no change.
When I pulled off the Air Intake cap near the brake reservoir, and plugged it with my thumb it definitely had suction, and when I plugged it the engine dropped down in revs to normal... but plugging it isn’t normal
Also note, it is burning a lot of smoke out the back... somebody mentioned that this might be a timing issue then???
I would say that the vacuum reservoir tank has a hole in it, one of the lines to it has a hole and or the check valve in the reservoir tank has failed.
A failing check valve itself would not cause high idle, my tank and valve had been disconnected for years and I didn't even know it.
With mine, the vacuum line from the brake servo was connected directly to the manifold.
So to test for a vacuum leak in the vacuum tank circuit, connect the brake vacuum line from the brake servo (booster) directly to the intake manifold.
If the revs return to normal, then you have a leak in the reservoir system.
You can get some cheap line of some sort to temporarily connect the servo directly to the manifold.
What colour is the smoke, black or white ?
White smoke would indicate a coolant leak (it would smell kind of sweet). (how's your coolant level ?)
White smoke is also caused by a failing brake servo where brake fluid is being sucked directly into the intake manifold _ how's your brake fluid level.
Get the timing issue out of your head for now, don't touch the distributor or mess with the valve timing.
An engine out of time does not cause black or white smoke.
The white smoke could also simply be water vapour in the exhaust from a cold engine, this is normal, especially at this time of year in Ontario where it's starting to get cold.
A by-product of burning fossil fuel is water, the cold engine and exhaust system isn't hot enough yet to fully vapourize it and it is seen as white exhaust.
Jeff is on the right track I would say, I assume you mean the large black air intake.
This pipe/filter should not be seeing a vacuum under non braking conditions, the air valve on the servo lifts under harder braking, and air enters the servo via the filter to release the vacuum behind the diaphragm in the servo so that atmospheric pressure is on one side of the servo and a vacuum on the other.
If the air valve is stuck open, the vacuum circuit is open to atmosphere and you will not be getting a vacuum build up. The pipe to the servo and servo is quite close to the distributor, make sure you haven't dislodged something as this is a new problem you said which has only happened after you changed the contacts. Plugging the air intake will not cause any problems re running, (it will cure a vacuum leak inside the servo) but it will stop the servo functioning obviously.
Report back on smoke colour as Jeff has said, there sounds like there is an issue in the servo, the air valve diaphragm opens the air valve, and this is operated by brake fluid pressure under normal conditions, so if there is brake fluid in the vacuum side this could indicate a problem that is keeping the air valve open, the seal may have disintegrated and jammed the air valve open.
Smoke is not white... more like a grey black... It was there before, but seems like more now. My buddy says that tends to be a rich mixtures, and it smells rich.
Back to vacuum... yes, that black AC cap in one of my prior pics is the one that sucks quite a bit even idling (high idle). I found that when I plugged it (feeling for vacuum) the idle dropped and when I test drove it, brakes were fairly ineffective, so I removed the plug, and put the black AC cap back on.
I’m not sure where some of the items are that you mention (air valve, servo, vacuum reservoir tank) so I may need more guidance. I can get tubing to run test lines if needed. What should I do first and check for?
The is with the black AC (air cleaner) cap off... this hose is where I plugged and the revs dropped.
I’ll include some more pics of the car below...
Engine bay before I replaced with blue Bosch coil...
Original tool kit
The boot
I think this points in the direction of the vacuum discussions.
AC cap to the left.
Before I replaced the points... I had no such view like this... it was a cell phone shot angle with flash... that diaphragm on the left doesn’t affect idle when I pull the hose, but I think it only should when accelerating (for spark advance)?
Thanks John. I found a photo which may help (attached below). And sorry, I didn’t mean step by step in the rebuild... more on the best way and where to disconnect / connect to troubleshoot the vac issue.
WOW on that rebuild!!! Incredible. I once undertook something similar on a 1963 Case backhoe loader I had for a farm a had. Loved it. But this time it's about just getting her going. If I need to dismantle and look for damage I can, but hoping not, and seems awfully coincidental to my recent other work, so I’m hoping it’s merely troubleshooting and finding something simple (don’t we all!)
Not quite sure which line I should disconnect first, and check for, or connect to what. The image shows a few things. Where is the vacuum reservoir stashed. I’ll rummage around and see what I can find for obvious possible breaks or disconnects now with this image.
Originally Posted by JeffR1
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A failing check valve itself would not cause high idle, my tank and valve had been disconnected for years and I didn't even know it.
With mine, the vacuum line from the brake servo was connected directly to the manifold.
So to test for a vacuum leak in the vacuum tank circuit, connect the brake vacuum line from the brake servo (booster) directly to the intake manifold.
If the revs return to normal, then you have a leak in the reservoir system.
You can get some cheap line of some sort to temporarily connect the servo directly to the manifold.
I need to run this test now that I have a diagram, but need to find that vac res. Did I understand correctly in a prior post that under idle conditions I shouldn’t really be feeling a vacuum at that breather hose?
Under non braking conditions, the breather should not be open, no matter whether it is idle or full revs, so you should not feel a vacuum at on that pipe, the fact that you can and when you seal that pipe the vacuum increases and the car idles properly indicates that this is the source of the vacuum leak.
After that I am of the opinion that the Servo needs repair, but it does seem coincidental that this has occurred after you have been fiddling around, but I can't think of anything that you could have done bar taking off the breather filter and dropping something down the pipe that would jam the air valve open.
Someone else may well have another diagnosis, but from what you have said this does seem to be the issue.
I totally agree with Jon, servo needs a rebuild.
Yes, quite the coincidence that this happened at the same time along with the ignition problem.
Gbourck, along with the servo repair/rebuild, also go over the vacuum reservoir tank and check valve as shown in your diagram.
They are also a common source for trouble due to their location in the fender well.
They are very exposed to water/salt and prone to rust.
Consider the after-market servo, but you will have to fabricate some mounts, it just doesn't bolt right in.
10-11-2017, 08:27 PM
