Factory electronic ignition from Ford, GM, Chrysler etc. can't be compared to these aftermarket gizmos that take the place of points.
Yes they work, but are not as reliable as factory units, and if yours works and has not broken yet, consider yourself lucky.

I am considering replacing the duel point system in my Bentley with a 123 ignition system, only because the duel points do not stay synchronized.
This is so because as the points wear, the dwell changes and they fall out of synchronization, this effects the idle, and one can't have a rough idle on a Bentley.

When it comes to the Jag, the distributor shaft can be worn and because there is only one set of points, it doesn't matter.
Electronic ignition is necessary so a computer can read what the spark is doing and adjust things on the fly so the whole works.

On a car with mechanical weights, carburetors and no computer, one really isn't gaining anything.

Another problem is the lack of shielding in an old fashioned distributor with no shielding, suddenly the magnetic pick up that tells the coil when to get voltage has this lightening storm going inside the distributor.
The spark jumping from the centre of the distributor creates its own magnetic field, this in turn affects the aftermarket ignition module, and it a good way.
If I had to go with an electronic ignition on an old car, I would get a 123 ignition, but the other junk, is just that, and is unreliable enough where I don't have confidence in it for the reasons above.
Why put a unit in there that uses the antiquated advanced weights, they are probably quite worn along with the shaft.

 

My distributer was completely rebuilt & set to spec on a good old Sun machine. It's curve is adequately correct & will stay so for the mileage I will do in this car. I wanted to retain the Lucas 22D6 for originality. Remember my objective was as close to concours as possible at the southern tip of Africa. Pertronix has come a very long way from the el cheapo junk that they sold in blister packs through spares stores. Today they use top components & are internally shielded. They have not sat on their hands & now have a reputation to protect. Times change and they continue to develop. My unit is a couple of generations old already.

The 123 Ignition unit is excellent but does not look original. Depends what one is trying to achieve. At least they have now finally put a black cap on it instead of the burnt orange they stubbornly stuck to until it was costing them sales. Both are now available.

As I say my buddy in Dallas has had zero issues on his fleet of classics. He is trying a 123 Ignition unit in his Benz Ponton Cabriolet Hydrak that has just completed restoration in Poland. (Just 11 built of his particular version). It will be driven for 500Km, sorted & then shipped to the US. They have 3 more of his cars in process.

I have an open mind to change over time. If it fails I will let everybody know. Obviously my attitude to the Jag is quite different to that of my Merc which is a daily driver.

If I had to have my Jag flat bedded home from anywhere in the greater Cape Town area it would cost me a whole $50 maximum or less if closer to home.

When these Jags were new it did not stop people from doing a long trip across Europe. A friend and his wife did a trip from London to Bombay (Mumbai) in his 1957 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spider against everybody's advice & made it just fine. Shipped the car home all in one piece. In 1955, Richard Pape & crew drove two Austin A90 Westminsters from North Cape (Nordkapp) at the top tip of Norway to Cape Town.

 

SU fuel pumps come from an era of white ties, top hats and canes. It is ancient technology.
I battled with SU pumps starting 58 years ago with my first MK7. I have rebuilt probably dozens over the years for myself and Jaguar friends.
About 20 years ago I gave up on these SU pumps and substituted Facet pumps on MK1s, MK2s and Series 2 XJ6s.
Since then I have not had a single fuel pump failure.
That speaks for itself.
Bill Mac
MK1
MK2
S3XJ6
X300 (X2)
14 previous jags MK5 to X308

 

What is it about an SU fuel pump that is so unreliable ?
I've never had one fail, or I should say my Dad never had one fail when I was a kid.
All the ones on my present cars never gave any trouble.

How does a Facet pump work, how can it be solid state and still pump fuel, something has to move ?

EDIT:
Never mind, but the video doesn't explain very well, or at all how it pumps, what action is there that moves the "slug" to open and close the check valves for it to pump fuel.

 

JeffR1

As I have said, I have not had a Facet pump fail.

Not including my present fleet I have had 4 MK2s, 3 MK1s, 1 S2XJ6, 2 MK7s, 1 MK5 and 1 MG TD using SU pumps. (The MK10 , XJ40 and X308 don't feature here due to different pumps)

It may be the Australian enviroment of extreme heat to extreme cold as well as a lot of unsealed main roads but SU pump failures were a bane of owners of these cars.
"SU fuel pumps just are waiting to fail" and "Joseph Lucas - Prince of Darkness" are well and truly embedded in the Australian motoring vernacular. Australia has a similar area to the USA but is very sparsely settled and distances between settlement are huge. Consequently reliability is a major factor in a motor vehicle. SU pumps fail to make the "cut".

As an example I can go back to February 1969 when both pumps failed in a MK7 in outback Queensland 20 miles out of Thargomindah.( check it on Google earth) I had to crawl under the car to clean the points and the day temperature was around 40 degrees C or a bit over 100 degrees F and it was on a gravel road. You can only imagine what the ground temperature was and what was my choice of language while cursing SU.( My newly wedded wife was a bit shocked!) I could go on forever about SU pump failures but the real deciding point came when a set of points and a diaphragm suddenly jumped to well over A$120. It was definitely time to look at alternatives.

The Facet pumps are approved for use in airplanes (aeroplanes) and a Piper Cherokee 180 that I owned had a supplementary type certificate (STC) modification for mogas ( motor vehicle gasoline) which required a pair of Facet pumps to be fitted.
They never gave any problems. That was the point which swayed me to Facet.

If you so love SU pumps its a pity you live in Canada. If you were in Australia I would happily send you a dozen assorted intact SU pumps plus a heap of assorted spare parts for free as they are taking up space in my garage and I will never use them again!

cheers
Bill Mac
MK1
MK2
S3XJ6
X300 (X2)
14 previous jags MK5 to X308

 

Yes ~ a company that never kept up with the times, earned a shocking reputation that lead to it's ultimate demise. Just because one has not experienced something personally does not make it so. The petroleum industry is a good measure of such things. When people have exhausted bitching at the OEM they bitch at us. Must be the fuel. SU's were trouble: Point & point mechanism failure, diaphragm failure, valve failures, solenoid failure, armature failure/jamming. That's pretty much the whole pump. I'm not going to blame it for being intolerant of dirt/rust. That would be unfair but then it should have had suitable inlet filtration & not bolt catchers, and of adequate debris holding capacity for reasonable service intervals.

Aviation industry approval is good enough for me Bill. Hardi pumps just have a bullet proof reputation. The choice of the likes of Porsche in pre HP fuel injection days.

SA has much in common with Aus. Just our distances are not quite as large without settlement. Not that some of those settlements would be much use to you other than a bit of tyre kicking & a chat. I guess you could cut a piece of wire out of a farmer's fence to tie up your exhaust until you reach civilisation.

 

It's a basic high energy oscillator & the valves will pop open & close as it hits the end of it's stroke at either end aided by the spring & thus it will pump. (In very basic terms). Clever & simple. Hence reliable if provided with clean fuel. It may or may not draw a slight vacuum to aid this. It obviously draws a vacuum at the suction side & will be self priming within a spec. It's not a flooded pump.

Aviation fuel has stringent cleanliness specs. For aviation use specific absolute micron rating of the inlet filter will be specified for use of such pump and you have 2 of them.

 

The joy of owning an S Type that has two fuel tanks with independent SU fuel pumps on each tank. So if one goes down you flick the switch and as long as you have fuel in the other tank it fires up and gets you home.

 

Interestingly, back in my more sporting youth, we used to replace the SU pumps on Minis with Facet pumps. Meanwhile, Imps had a mechanical pump, I think it was AC. It was so useless that it was usually replaced by an SU (one taken off a Mini?). Of course the great attraction of the Imp was that it was very cheap compared with a Mini, though they were rather more likely to get broken

 

Mk2 owners have always been ready to adopt a nice upgrade, especially if it's already on another Jaguar. In the 1970s and 80s, it wasn't unusual to find a Mk2 with two independent SU pumps for its single tank. The switch was often 3-way. The 3rd setting being the anti-theft one of all pumps switched off.

In it's 130,000 miles with my father and then with me, I recall the Mk2 stopping on the road on three occasions. Once the earth had dropped of the distributor, once water from the top hose had dripped on to the distributor and once the SU pump gave up. The first two were not long after my father bought the car.

 

That certainly helps but the good old Hardi is provided with connectors that take the Jag banjo bolts. It is the same diameter as an SU & thus mounts in the standard Jag rubber lined clamp. It is dual polarity and makes the same start up noises that many like. Hence I fitted X 2. Even takes Lucas bullet connectors & spades.

Huco makes a similar pump but it's proved problematic with our inland 10% alcohol laced fuel (max 12% permitted). They claim to have fixed elastomer compatibility with alcohols but durability is still suspect.










Damn alcohol laced fuel after 3 weeks or so. What Barratts sold as the right stuff for Jaguar nylon hose replacement. I notice they have withdrawn it. Original Jaguar hose seems OK with alcohol (when the hose is nice & brown). I was fed up when the car cut out on that tank & changed to proper black fuel hose from VW. Originality be damned.

 

As of yesterday the 1st September all UK unleaded now has E10. I only use super unleaded which is still E5 but sometimes I have found a garage that does not sell super unleaded and have had to move on. I always keep at least one tank 3/4 full before looking to fill up again.

 

I should hope that the Facet pumps don't fail if they are built to very standards for aviation, and even then, the planes have two pumps.
I don't love SU fuel pumps, I love my father and my cat.
It's just that I have never had the numerous problems with them that others have had.

The problem with the SU pumps is the condenser in there, that fails or starts to, and that's when things all go to hell.
The points start to arc, resistance goes up from the arcing points.
The resistance cuts down on current flow, this causes over heating of the solenoid.
All this starts to snow-ball and the pump fails from burnt points and/or over heating of the solenoid.
Leaky diaphragms is another problem, but I've never had one leak, that's where the Facet pump has an advantage, the Hardy pumps, not so much.
But, with modern materials, I would think that it's not an issue anymore, in the Hardy pumps and an SU built up with new parts.

Maybe that's why I don't problems, I've replaced the condenser with a varistor, and I think Burlen is using a diode now, but I'm not to sure about that, but I know they don't use an aluminum foil type condenser anymore.

 

Aviation will always have redundancy in critical systems. This would be considered critical.

 

The basic SU kit to convert your pump to solid state switching & chuck out the cursed troublesome points and old condensers/capacitors etc.. Trouble is at this price once VAT is added you may as well buy a new Hardi pump with everything new & a very long life ahead of it. Same could be said for Facet.







Version with all components on one side of the board which escalates the price to £81 inc VAT. Facet have chosen to integrate everything into a single chip. Probably helped with their aviation certification. Much less chance of dry solder joints/cracks in PCBs.

 

Well this thread really drifted away from the original topic but it has been interesting to see the reaction to the topic of fuel pumps.

I agree with Glyn. The SU pump and parts system are expensive. In Australia the cheapest brand new SU pump is around A$500+ and the dual body pumps go up to A$900.
In contrast Bendix/Facet pumps are around A$130 and genuine Facet pumps around A$170.

There are also many cheap "knock off copy" facet type pumps for as little as A$20.(probably made somewhere in Asia) Typically found in aftermarket parts stores. I actually used one of these cheap ones in one of my previous Jags just to get it mobile and home one weekend and it did work OK. The b#%*y SU pump had failed!

cheers
Bill Mac
MK1
MK2
S3XJ6
X300 (X2)
14 previous jags MK5 to X308

 

We frequently find ourselves OT here but people don't seem to mind and enjoy the discussions.

The SU AZX 1307 (with points) is £128 in the UK and only on special order from Barratts. They only stock the Hardi & recommend it for Jaguar. (BTW there is some BS on the internet in places. No Hardi has points. They are fully electronic & polarity insensitive. They are omnipresent in the marine industry)
SU's 1308 version for Jaguar is £222. So called OE/standard. I think you are paying for the box.

 

The prices I quoted are straight from the SU/Midel website in Australia.
The English price of 222 pounds (we no longer have a pounds symbol on OZ keyboards) translates to approx. A$410.
I suppose they want the extra $100 for freight!

Bill Mac
MK1
MK2
S3XJ6
X300 (X2)
was 14 now 15 previous jags MK5 to X308 (just realised I had forgotten a MK8)