Hello to all the members out there! I have fallen for a Jaguar 420 1966 that is all in one piece , but does not start, and it has been in storage for about 30 years in an underground parking. Currently it is sitting in the sellers driveway for the last 2 years covered but in the elements. Canadian summer and winters.
There is no ownership history known about the car, so the project will be full of surprises. It is an automatic.
To me it looks fairly nice for its age. With a lot of hard work and long hours of DIY, I think I can get it running and looking much better. I have been getting some discouraging advise, which makes me nervous to jump in and buy it. The word money pit comes to mind!
Any idea what one should pay for a car like this. Motor turns but does not run.

Thanks
Jimmy










Thanks

 

All restorations are money pits. We do them because we love the cars ~ e.g. See my signature. Even replaced every wiring harness. To my eyes even though I restored an S Type the 420 is a very pretty car. They are labours of love that at least retain their prices/value generally or rise. Buy a new car and it loses 40% of it's value the minute you drive it off of the dealer floor. The only exception to this seems to be Porsche. They retain value well internationally, other than maybe in the US throwaway society.

 

I could give no indication of price in Canada. Talk to your local Jaguar Club. Jagboi64 on this forum would have a good idea. Condition, condition ad infinitum.

 

And I see Jagboi64 below looking at your post.

 

Much of this applies to the 420. It's only new from the scuttle and dash forward.

 

Without a detailed inspection it is very difficult to put a value on any car. A 420 does not have as a high price range as a Mk2 and is slightly lower in value to an equivalent standard S Type (in my opinion).£15 to £20k should buy you a fully restored 420. A running driving 420 but needs work tidying up possibly a paint touch up and some mechanical work which can be done whilst the car is on the road between £10 and £15k. A none running 420 with rusty body work, wings and floors (which is the main expense) you could pick up for as little as £2000. At this price it would be worth breaking the car as the parts are worth more than the whole.
Rebuild costs on the other hand are astronomical. £400 for a wing repair panel. £3000+ for an engine rebuild. £1000+ for a gearbox rebuild. £3000+ for a respray. £2 to £3k for an interior refurbishment and the list goes on. I rebuilt my S Type from a similar starting position as your 420 for which I paid £4000 but the previous owner had already spent £3000 on welding (not very well done though) and new panels but ran out of time and money. I then gave it a full body strip and respray to correct a lot of the work already done, full engine and gearbox rebuild, as many parts refurbished as possible rather than buying new and my restoration bill came to just over £6500 but I did all the work myself over an 18 month period. £11500 in total. Some times it is cheaper to go out and buy a car that has already been restored and pay £15k on it knowing that the person you have just bought it from has spent more on the rebuild than that. A friend of mine (who has too much money) has spent over £50k on rebuilding his S Type which is worth £25 to £30 if he tried to sell it. Everything was new, Interior, wood, seats, chrome, full paint job and fully rebuilt engine and gearbox. All done by a restorer at £50+ an hour labour over two years.
When it comes to setting a budget try and work out a figure in your head then double it and add £3000 as a contingency. Same with the time period to get the car finished and on the road. Set a date in the future when you want the car on the road, add a couple of years and then expect something to crop up that will add another couple of years on to it again. I took 18 months from the time I bought the car to having it on the road but I had just retired and treated the rebuild as my 9 to 5 job five days a week. I say 9 to 5 but there were many days when I was so tied up with a job I lost track of time and had the wife knocking on the garage door at 10 in the evening telling me she was off to bed and that my dinner was still in the oven.
This is not to put you off as these cars need to be saved and the satisfaction you get from rebuilding the car and then driving it on the road far out way the traumas you might face on the way but lots of restorations are still sitting in a garage many years after the good intention to finish it have past.


My S type when I collected it as a part built restoration.



Every nut and bolt removed when I took the shell to the blasters.



The finished car 18 months later.

 

I second what Glyn said, do it because you want to, not because it make financial sense. Rust is a big concern with these cars, and it looks like it's already started behind the front wheel. The interior doesn't look too bad, it might be savable, if it isn't that is probably at least $10K there to replace.

There are two schools of thought, pay up front and get a nice car, or pay over time and do a restoration. You'll pay more to do a restoration, but the process is the enjoyment. The Hagarty guide says a "fair" condition running car is worth about $17,000. This is quite a bit below that, and to be honest non-running Jaguars are really worth scrap or parting out value. Between carbs and the rear end and some engine bits you might eek out $2,000 in parts sales That is sort of where I'd start, in the $1500-2000 range. At this point you're really just buying a VIN plate and some parts.

What is the seller asking? By the background I'm guessing this is on the west coast? There is a very active Jaguar Club in Victoria, the members there might be able to give more advice. https://jccv.clubexpress.com/

 

Potential.

 

Thanks JB ~ You know the Canadian market. I'm lucky ~ I started with a totally rust free car that had spent it's entire life at our dry high altitude. 1 X owner ~ a Doctor. Even boroscoped the sills & they were rust free.

 

Hello and tanks for all the comments.
This car is in Quebec. You comments agree with what I have been thinking. Yes I already offered scrape value plus some money to cover any costs that this person had just to get it to his driveway. He wants a bit more as he had an evaluation done which is just too much. I know what he wants, I wanted an opinion from you folks. I think what he wants is in my budget to get started.

The restoration above is super encouraging, and looks great!

In my head I have a 5 to 7 year timeline. I am not retired, but do so many renovation projects, I have a good head about how long things take.
I have been restoring my old 1982 GS750S Suzuki Katana, and it has been one thing after the other, but in a sequence. Carbs are a real pain, but if things are not seized and cleanable in this Jag, it is doable.

Getting home does not involve great distance or crossing a boarder, so that is favorable. For this, I see it as a stage gate project; do a full inspection to see what is what; focus on getting the engine going and take it one day at time. Hopefully she fires up.

I also look forward to teach myself to weld, which I expect will be a big part of the restoration.

Thanks and keep the comments coming.

Jimmy

 

I would definitely be concerned about rust in a Quebec car. Looking closer I see a bunch behind the front bumper. I'd look closely at the chrome, as that is horribly expensive to get replated. I had some Series 1 E Type bumpers replated 2 years ago and the 4 pieces was close to $5,000. The E type bumpers are smaller than a 420!

 

Yes I am concerned about rust and everything else that comes with a 1966 car.
That is why I only offered scrap value plus an incentive.
Time will tell if a deal can be done to even get the car.

 

As above, it depends on how good/bad the body is. The 420 is the pinacle of evolution of the compact saloon before the XJ6 came along but sadly they are not overly valuable and a lot have been scrapped to use parts for the more desirable MK2 and S-Type models as the 420 have better brakes and better power steering.

In the UK if it was reasonably good and restorable I would expect to pay around £1000-2000 GBP, a lot would depend on the condition of things like the chrome, the interior and also what I was prepared to accept and reuse.

Its very much a heart over head decision with these cars and if you really want a 420 then go for it, if your just looking at it just because its there ask yourself if you would really prefer a MK2 or S-Type or something else and if the answer is yes then this 420 is going to be a money pit without the satisfaction for you at the end.

 

Also should have added, if there is rust make sure you can weld as paying someone to do anything on these cars is a significant cost if you want it done correctly.

 

"You've got to know when to walk away and know when to run" (Johnny Cash in "The Gambler")
Simply, unless you were being given this car for free, I wouldn't touch it. Even for free I would hesitate to take it unless you have storage room.
I understand it comes from Quebec which is salt road country and rust is endemic. Rust is like icebergs. Only 10% is visible and the other 90% is hiding.
Glyn's advice is correct. Start with something in good condition.
Unless you have metalworking and painting skills stay away from rusty cars like this.
I advise "walk"!!

 

...Hey Bill , as it shows , in one fell swoop, the bricks hit hard .Rust never sleeps
I am just a DIYer. But check out this rust repair on my 2014 car that the dealer messed up the rocker panel before i purchased it.
See the photos: turned out not that bad if I do say so.


....

 

Rivets! A real bodge job. Rivets ruin any strength in the pressing.

 

As Glyn has just said. RIVETS are a No No.
The sill on any Mk2, S Type or 420 is part of the back bone of the car. The Mk2 only had two sills either side an inner and outer. On the S Type and the 420 they added a third centre sill to give it even more torsional strength. These panels are welded in (spot welded) and are very strong. As soon as you take that sill out and replace it with a panel that has been riveted in you may as well scrap the car. If it was involved in an accident the rivets would tear out very easily and the car would fold in half.
When I rebuilt my MGB GT V8 I found the inner sill had been bodged as it was rusty and the previous owner had riveted aluminium repair panels in over the holes but under the carpet (which had then been glued down on to the alloy panels) When you hit the sills with a screw driver through the carpet the whole sill felt and sounded solid. Taught me a lot of lessons.
Learn how to weld. Puddle or plug welds would have been better which is where there is a hole in the outer panel and you weld through this hole melting the inner panel. Similar to spot welding but very effective. Little or no distortion but still strong.

 

Even after media blasting Bill we did not find one ounce of rust on my car. We started from the ground up like Cass. Only difference is I replaced all my wiring harnesses. South Africa's sun had taken it's toll on plastic insulation. Fabric insulation was fine. A good friend lost his beautifully restored Mk2 to a fire due to only 2 fuses & a short somewhere. The S Type is better fuse protected but I still thew the harnesses out & replaced all. The UK climate is a lot more gentle on insulation.

 

The UK climate is a lot more gentle on plastic insulation.