Hello Folks -

I recently replaced the grill on my '62 with another one, the original had become quite dull / yellow. I picked up a nice (not perfect) grill from a 2.4 car and went about swapping them yesterday. To my surprise, even though the grills looked the same at a glace, the "shoulders" at the top were more rounded on the 3.8 grill (the original grill). I took the center vane off to get a better look, and sure enough, as the shoulders come round from the sides and meet in the middle (under the center vane) they were more rounded than the 2.4 grill I'd picked up, which was generally flatter at the top. The difference was perhaps 3/16ths of an inch, perhaps a 1/4, in terms of curve at the top.

My first thought was that I'd gotten a grill from a different Jaguar, but when I looked at my '61 MKII, it also had the slightly flatter grill - so it matched the 2.4 car. After some adjusting, lengthening mounting holes, etc, I was able to make the 2.4 grill fit, and I'd say the fit is pretty good, but not as good as the original. The original grill also had most of its vanes re-soldered, so I wondered if perhaps someone reformed the grill to perfectly fit the contour of the opening, or if in fact, there were two grill designs for the MKII?

I've attached two pictures to illustrate. The first is the replacement "flatter" grill, the 2nd is the more rounded original. I've done some looking at it seems like the flatter grill is what the MKII is supposed to have....and yes, these are the same car, same paint, just different light.

New grill

Old grill

 

Not sure about the Mk2 but there was a second grill designed for the S Type. This had a slightly different profile and the outer chrome surround was slightly thicker. Difficult to see on my car due to the light colour but I am sure Glyn has a photo of the S type grill on a darker coloured car which will be easier to see.

 

I can find Zero record of a 2nd Grill P/N for a Mk2 like the S Type has. That does not mean that there was not a change in production. This was custom fit to the body prior to chroming. Due to the lead filling in this area many grills sit proud somewhere around their "circumference"






Grill is not attached & just hanging there hence off centre. Shows lead wiping.

 

OE grilles required adjustment, bending and body solder, to be made to fit. In addition, many must have been replaced with restored or aftermarket. And aftermarket body components are all too often an approximation to OE. Given all this, it's not surprising that there are different shapes in circulation.

 

Mine is OE & a Brass/Bronze casting. My restorer is a master at working with metal. He said to me you may not want to watch this but I did. Much banging away with various hammers & dollies leaving me worried that you would see marks once chromed but it came out perfect. Not a mark or sign that it had been touched. Best fitting S Type grill in Cape Town.

 

Nothing surprises me about this. Jaguar body shells and their fitting were subject to much "fettling" to make things fit. Just take a pair of E-type rear bumpers and offer them up to you immaculately restored E-type. Sh*t, they don't fit !! I imagine the radiator grill on the Mark 2 is similar. I found the fixing studs were not an exact match to the aperture slots when I fitted my grill in the late 80s. I remember seeing a film about the XJ saloons in the 70s where guys were employed on the body line to make the doors fit using various "levers". It was called "door fu*king" !!

 

If I am honest - I may have tapped (hit) my grill with a rubber mallet a few times to get it close to right.

 

here's my S type with its Daimler grille.

 

I thought you had said that the Daimler grill did not fit Jose as it had a different contour to it. Have you had it altered and fitted?

 

Cass, only the sides "plane" is different,

to explain, the Daimler grille is identical size, (width and length), except for the areas that contact the body on the left and right sides about halfway down, it leaves an almost 1/4" inch raised open space between the grille and the body, exactly at the center of the sides. Otherwise it meets the body perfectly with the top, bottom, and the rest.

So I can either pull the body sheetmetal out to meet with the grille contour, which I won't do, or I can flatten the grille frame, which I won't do either. I have saved the original grille to be able to put it back, so no modifications.

someone suggested to just fill the area with the same rubber edging used in the boot plinth, and that is one pretty good solution. I remember Volvo grilles had rubber edging all around

the funny thing is that all the mounting studs fall in place perfectly, including the one at the top, but the Daimler grille is more "egg shaped" or "rounded" and the S type grille is flatter, not as much curve.

overall it looks incredibly luxurious and it leaves a 3/32nd" inch space between the bonnet's front edge and the grille's top edge. No interference. The first Daimler S type in history.

 

I think what you have described is the difference between the S Type grill shape and the Mk2 body grill shape. Possibly the shape of the wings on the S type are different to accommodate the shape of the head light cowlings or hoods plus the fact the S Types Fog lights stick out the front more to accommodate the larger 6 inch FT6 lucas bulbs..

 

yes I have heard similar about the grilles of the XK-120 and the XK-140 which look identical at plain sight but they are not. The XK-150 is obviously different, but not the two earlier models.

 

I think the Daimler grill looks odd on an S Type.

I really like the Daimler grill on the 420 Daimler Sovereign.

 

I like the luxurious chrome effect of the Daimler grille, it makes the car look "grand" as opposed to the original grille which looks "bland" after comparing it with the Daimler grille.

I am`now wondering if tightening the stud nuts will close the gap, since in the above photo, the grille was only sitting on the body unfastened.

 

I agree with Glyn that the 420 looks better with the Daimler grill. I think the Daimler grill looks weird on the S Type because they never made a Daimler S Type. Perhaps they should have kept making the S Type with some of the 420s upgrades and just made the 420 as a Daimler?

 

Trouble is the 420 did very well in the US & the Daimler name means nothing there. Possibly the Daimler brand belongs to Daimler Benz in the US. The Sovereigns in '66 were really a UK car only. Benz jealously guards the Daimler brand. Only 6% of Sovereigns built were LHD. Don't know where they went. Jaguar only built the 420 in SA although a few Sovereigns found there way here. Daimler sold a lot of busses to SA.

Daimler was founded in 1896 and was owned from 1910 by the Birmingham Small Arms Company (BSA) until they were close to collapse and Lyons bought out Browns Lane lock stock & barrel needing the space along with what was left of Daimler (UK).


The company bought the right to the use of the Daimler name simultaneously from Gottlieb Daimler and Daimler-Motoren-Gesellschaft of Cannstatt, Germany in 1896 for the UK. (Wikipedia) ~ [and possibly some of the colonies]

 

As I understand it, the Daimler brand (for a car) belongs to Jaguar Cars Ltd worldwide. They haven't used the name much outside the UK because most people associate it with Daimler AG, the producers of Mercedes-Benz motor cars. The story goes that Daimler AG offered to buy the name, but were refused and so used Maybach for their limo. As Glyn says Coventry Daimler bought a licence to produce Daimler cars in the UK from the original German Cannstatt Daimler company. Austro-Daimler (Steyr-Puch) of Austria, a company in the US and either Panhard or Levasseur in France had similar arrangements. With so many other 'Daimlers' and the fact that Cannstatt had already launched the name Mercedes, it made sense for them to drop it as a brand name.

There's an interesting aside that Cannstatt Daimler was on the financial rocks in the mid-1890s. As Coventry Daimler were dependent on them for parts, the backers of the UK company re-financed and re-organised the German one.

Both in the US and in Italy, I experienced difficulty in convincing people that my Daimler Double Six had absolutely nothing to do with Daimler-Chrysler, Daimler-Benz or anything Mercedes. You might expect that anyone, from whom you are buying car insurance or ferry tickets or whatever, might think that you actually know what car you own!

"Look at it, doesn't it shout Jaguar."

 

Very interesting Peter. Daimler Benz management tell a somewhat different story and claim they hold sole rights to the Daimler brand in many countries. Who knows? I don't.

James Taylor agrees with what I know but he might well be wrong too.

 

Glyn, These things are always complicated and I'm no lawyer. I recall for sure that Ford/Jaguar/Tata gave permission to Daimler AG to call themselves simply Daimler after they de-merged from Chrysler. It's also quite likely that, since they haven't used it, Ford/Jaguar/Tata have allowed or been forced to allow the trade mark to lapse in some countries. And where Jaguar own the name, it will most likely be only for cars, not the many other products that Daimler AG produce.

When Ford decided on the name Sierra for their Cortina replacement, they took legal action demanding that Tim Dutton, a small and almost unknown UK kit builder, should stop using it. He refused and made a counter claim. It all went to court and Ford lost. They had to pay Dutton a load of cash and he gained a lot excellent publicity, increasing his production to an enormous (for him) 20 cars per week

 

The only Daimler sold in the US was the Daimler Dart. It was not sold as a Daimler though and was simply marketed as the Dart or SP250. Interestingly though there was a "Daimler" service division under Jaguar and we hold many of the bulletins and letters. It is our understanding that MB held the name in the US and therefore Jaguar could not use it and since they were not going to market the line it was not worth the fight. ON a side note when Jaguar did enter the US market officially after WW2 they found out the name Jaguar was held by a gentleman who did import SS cars and later SS Jaguar prior to the war. Lyons sought the help of the Studebaker Company (very friendly with each other) and the issue was quickly resolved. All of this is covered very well in "Jaguars in America" by Dougdale and later version edited by Cook.