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Others here will know better then me, but I think there is some reinforcement added that will be lost when a hole is cut in the roof.
Doesn't look like there is any reinforcement at all the way it stands.
Even with a Webasto that anti-drummiing layer (In this case Dynamat) is very important. In heavy rain it sounds like a cat on a hot tin roof without it (Jaguar used bituminous sheeting about 3mm thick on S Types prior to the board on very late cars). The Webasto will look after itself noise wise. Some reinforcement was added to my Alfa's with Webasto's. All part of the kit in those days. Had 7 Alfa's and on 3 I had Webasto's installed. Some were dropheads (Spider's) anyway.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 03-12-2023 at 06:03 AM.
Beyond the window and door frames and the roof panel itself, I don't see that there's any additional structural stiffening in the standard roof. The compound curvature makes it stiffer than a flat roof. A thick layer of heavy felt/jute (something like old fashioned carpet underlay) provides some heat and noise insulation and, most likely in combination with the headliner bows, some damping. It's a neat design that I'd never cut a hole in.
Yes ~ The Alfa Berlina 1750 & 2000 had particularly flat roofs. The Sud ti's were tin cans. Only kept mine for 5 months from new & traded it on a new 2000 Berlina Executive. One thing in favour of the Sud was man but it handled well. Could corner at speeds well above most cars.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 03-12-2023 at 06:35 AM.
From the link to the headliner installation thread, it appears there is a left to right support about 2/3rds the way back from the front and a support in the center from front to back intersecting with the left/right support. What I cannot determine is whether the the supports are welded to the inside of the roof the entire distance or just at the ends with the supports being just flush with the roof panel. Maybe the author of the headliner thread Theozen could respond.
Would love to see a photos of the installation of an original Webasto sunroof. How if the center support was cut was there any reinforcement then around the edges to counter losing the center support.
In my other thread asking to locate a Webasto sunroof kit, we did get a lot of info including instructions. showing the process, but cannot tell what car was used for the instructions. They can be viewed in link below. Also the company that used to supply the kits in the link went out of business a few years ago and it seems the original hardware is no longer available. I had no success in trying to contact Webasto for availability.
More photos of the like would be very appreciated,
As for cutting into a MK2 that did not have a sunroof, its my understanding from my other post and from research, Jaguar took cars of the assembly line and had some fitter(s) install the Webasto sunroofs. So what we are trying to do is exactly what the factory did, only a whole bunch of years later, If only we could find a NOS kit. There are other company making similar sliding units and we would consider them if they were close to the original design.
Trying to find an original MK2 with a factory sunroof fitted has thus far not turned up any candidates that are within our price range, and having a manual with overdrive tranny. They are quite rare.
There were lots of Jags with both solid (minority) & Vinyl Webasto sun roofs. Even Radford fitted many of them straight from the plant if that's what the customer wanted. Jaguar sent out many such things from the plant where they did not want to disrupt production. Even non standard colour painting was sent out.
This is not Carmen Red. Jaguar imaginatively called it "New Red" for a customer that did not like Carmen Red. I happen to think the customer was correct. This is a far nicer red.
Restored in it's original colour ex works.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 03-12-2023 at 04:21 PM.
So when Jaguar pulled cars from the assembly line to install the Webasto sunroof it seems we do not know if there was an additional stiffening piece added or not.
Now in the later MK2's from what we have learned, some were fitted with a sliding roof that disappeared under the existing roof. These it seemed were fitted by Golde who supplied similar setups for Porsche and BMW of that era. In that case the inside of the roof does indeed have a subs structure to allow the for the sunroof to slide into. It was operated by cables either by electric motor or manual crank. We have an 1970 BMW with a Golde sunroof and there is a substructure.
If only someone on the forum has an original fitted Webasto sunroof and had at some point replaced their headliner, took photos and that would answer our question.
This is the Webasto vinyl sun-roof fitted to a Mk2 ~ No interior shot. ~ we are going to have to pray that someone has the shot you want & need. I hope someone finds one. I've searched my whole archive which actually concentrates on S Types which is what I was restoring..
This is a Webasto solid sunroof fitted to an S Type. Bottom photo terrible condition as is roof lining on second shot.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 03-13-2023 at 12:57 AM.
I think we might not have understood your question. Cars without a sun roof don't have any roof panel stiffening apart from what's essentially the door and window frames on its perimeter. When a Webasto type sunroof is fitted, the 'picture frame' and slides that come with it attach to the roof panel and locally stiffen the hole in the roof. Are you asking if there are additional braces, for example, running from the picture frame of the sunroof out to the door frame or door posts? I can't remember if there was anything like that on the Webasto in my Rover. Glyn might recall the arrangement in his Alfa? My opinion is that, even if it's present, it would add little strength or rigidity to the domed roof of a Mk2.
So if there are no additional braces that Jaguar provided when cars were to be fitted with a Webasto sunroof, then what we are proposing should work. I have found a source of a Webasto type sliding sunroof that also has a rectangular frame around the opening, and looks very similar. Thus the frame plus the very round (humpted) roof design should not weaken to any extent the roof when the sunroof is installed.
If we actually buy a MK2 then at some point we might indeed go down this road. As it seems there are no additional supports that would get in the way of installing the folding roof.
I finally found this photo of my S Type with the headliner removed. Mine is a later S type that has a fibre board insert that the headliner is stuck onto where as the early S type had the headliner stuck straight onto the underside of the roof. The Mk2 from what you have said has Bows to hold the headliner in place but I would think the structure of the underside of the metal roof is the same.
Prefect thanks, so id the S type and the MK2 are the same, it would appear that one could install a Webasto slinding sunroof or equivalent without cutting thru supports.
From what I remember of my Berlina's, they depended entirely on the Webasto frame for support. With the Sud it just had 2 aluminium reinforcers running under the roof lining to the top of the B Posts. All Pop riveted together with anti-rust compound applied to every hole. But we are talking a very long time ago & memories fade. The Sud was a very lightly built car vs the Berlinas.
I do not believe that a Mk2 has or requires any reinforcement with a Webasto Vinyl sliding roof. They were an early monocoque design and grossly over strong if not over stiff. All the S Type has is a flattened version of the Mk2 roof to better balance the long tail & increase rear headroom. Thus it's rear screen is more upright.
Last edited by Glyn M Ruck; 03-13-2023 at 02:09 PM.
Early in my thread "1960 MK2 not a restoration..." there is a picture of the car upside down looking in from the rear forward. You can see the visor pockets and frame work. I took that out to clear space for the roll cage. Looks like nothing in the center. I'll still shoot a photo tomorrow.
03-11-2023, 07:09 PM
Need Photos of bare roof from the inside with headliner removed
