Just a thought. Do any of the wires connect to a CAN network in a standard Astra configuration? E.g. A Benz alternator cuts out at WOT. (Wide open throttle ~ the joys of multiway comms). One might have to simplify the wiring in the Astra pump.

 

So when the regulator power wires (and no other wires) are connected to the pump, it appears that there's power coming out of the regulator even when the regulator is turned off? If that's the case, we either have a very clever device or an unhappy accident going on. Either way, it should be possible to resolve it at a lower cost than a Dynamotor. Unfortunately, I don't think I have enough info/knowledge of the devices to help. Even more unfortunately, the problem is lodged in my brain ... .

I think the regulator works by pulse width modulation. That is the output jumps up and down between 0 and 12V; low power is longer duration down and shorter up; max power is all up. When the regulator is switched to off, is it actually unpowered or is the output at max duration down? When a motor stalls, the current flow shoots off to very high. It may be that there's some circuit protection in the regulator that puts a minimum on the duration of the up pulse when currents become high. If that's the case, everything might be working correctly. A way to find out would be to put an oscilloscope (and maybe an ammeter) on the output of the regulator.

 

Hello again Glyn - Hope you're keeping well,

With regards a CAN network on the Vauxhall Astra - I haven't got a clue. I'm not knowledgeable enough with electronics to start messing about with the internals so perhaps 'Wouldbeowner' can let us know how he has progressed with his conversion. Thank you for your advice - it's appreciated.

 

The controller does work via PWM.

Quote:

"High-end Configuration: Our motor driver control board uses PWM modulation system to adjust light & speed."

Yes there might be a protection device in circuit.

Before spending a whole heap more money it might be worth having an electronics whizzkid take a look at it. My knowledge stops at my high end audio hobby. I understand that both digital & analogue ~ tubes & solid state & systems on Benz cars.

 

That being the case Glyn, would it account for the failure to reduce input voltage when instructed to do so ? Anything involving electronics is, in the main, gobbleygook to me - lol !

 

I don't know. Even if I had all the circuit diagrams I might not be able to work it out. You need an electronics whizzkid to look over the entire installation. It's beyond my competence & pay grade. I'm now out of my comfort zone. I'm always willing to learn from the pros. I have an inquiring mind. To me this should have been plug & play. Switchable power, variable voltage controller, 12V motor driving pump.

I'm keeping well, trust you are too. Thanks for asking.

 

Things have got far too complicated on modern cars and their components - give me carburretors and points any day. As I said earlier I might just abandon this idea and resort back to the old fashioned pump fitted to the rear of the dynamo (although if I do I'll invest in one of those alternators that look like a dynamo made or sold by Accuspark in the UK). I'll wait to see if 'wouldbecarowner' gets back to me first with his adventures. Thanks again Glyn.

 

Older TRW pumps (which I think the Astra used) didn't connect to the CAN or ECU. Later ones did. For this application, the pump should be the earlier type. I've no great idea on how they work in detail. Most of the DIY knowledge seems to be with kit car builders and car modifiers.

 

While chatting to WBO ask him if you & he, in fact, have the same pump.

Don't be scared to call in an electronics guy. It might save you a lot of money. While I moderate & give advice to members on MBWorld. I've saved people a fortune by steering them to competent people in modern car electronics, ECU's, CAN networks, HVAC controllers, TCU's, ESP, Brake Assist, ABS, Blind Spot monitoring, Headlamp Controllers, OBD diagnostics etc. etc. ad infinitum.

The dealers will break your bank account.

Recently a friend in Cape Town had the overhead cabin module & HVAC sniffer fan play up, (Benz monitors the position of the sun & the A/C blows colder on that side of the car.) Dealer wanted R15,000 to replace the module. Russell Ormarod from Car Electric repaired it for R750 with a 2 year warranty. Took him minutes.

 

Hi CaptainQ. When I first got the pump I am using (GM from a model called an Astra - but almost certainly the same unit) I testing the resistance between the brown and red wires and found ZERO. I interpreted this as a dead short and the gentleman I got it from was surprised but happily supplied me another. He said the new unit had been testing but yet again there was a dead short. So then I started to think there was something funny about these units. It seemed that when they are first connected up (ie the first mille second) there is current flow but then it immediately breaks the circuit in the unit itself and then the current flow stops.However while there is zero current flow there is also zero internal resistance. I dont expect any of this to give you an answer but it is to demonstrate that the wiring in these units isnt what you would expect.

 

It's actually an Opel Astra sold as a Vauxhall in the UK, Holden in Aus. etc. I want to try & find an internal wiring configuration in these things to understand the wiring system in the pump motor. Something is odd.

One finding Opel Astra gen II TRW pump.

Question:

"Did a test by putting the thick RED and thick BROWN directly to the battery and the pump didn't move at all."

Answer:

"You need 12v at the black and blue white wires for it to run"

Thin brown wire is for diagnostics & not required. (i.e. OBDII)

Does this help at all? I'm going to keep looking for a proper diagram.





So Thick Red, Black & Blue should be connected to the positive output of your controller I would believe. Otherwise we need to see what the black & blue wires are doing in the motor of the pump. (some sort of exciter or activation switch.) Obviously main earth completes the circuits.

 

See EDIT. ^

 

Thanks for that Glyn. I'll go out to the garage later and give it a try. What was really strange is that when I totally disconnected the black and the blue/slate wire it still appeared to be receiving 12 volts even though the control knob was turned to the 'OFF' position (or, indeed, any position). I'll post the outcome later. Electronics are a dark art to me (I've got a 2010 XKR with a touch screen and that has a mind of its own as to whether it works or not and I've tried all sorts to solve the problem - its a common problem on those cars with lots of possible anecdotes on the forum. I may have just solved that with a different battery as they are very susceptible to voltage instability).

 

Hi again 'wouldbecarowner'. Thank you for your comments - I think you're quite right, these pumps aren't just a normal motor and they must have some circuitry inside that behaves oddly. How have you got on with your steering conversion - is it working OK or have you, like me, had problems with seals ?

Kind regards - Keith

 

Just to add to the confusion: a normal DC motor, especially with a capacitor to suppress RF from the commutator, should look like short circuit for an instant after application of voltage. However, if there's an open relay between the power supply and the motor, obviously, it shouldn't.

Glyn, we all look forward to the circuit diagram and hope that we can make sense of it. If I ever get to use one of these, I think I'll do extensive bench trials before installation.

Captain, I keep my XKR on a CTek battery maintainer. I think it's essential for modern cars and those that don't have frequent use. My neighbour has given up on his Lexus and its permanently flat battery.

 

UPDATE:

Just tested it all again (this time with a multi-meter in place of bulb). Earth and 12v connected to the inlets of regulator, thick red wire and thick brown wire connected from outlet of regulator to pump (black and blue/slate wires connected to the fuse box and alternator). 12 Volts indicated at outlet of regulator (irrespective of control knobs position). I then detached the black wire and the blue/slate wire, just in case one of them was 'leaking' 12V to the pump. I then rechecked and my meter still showed 12V at regulator outler, irrespective of control knob position, so that discounted that theory. I then connected the black and the blue/slate wire to the outlet positive connector of the regulator, together with the thick red wire which goes to pump. After a few seconds the pump began to spin up. However, the regulator knob still made no difference and the outlet still read 12V, regardless of knob position.
I've now come to two possible conclusions: either the circuitry inside the pump is wired such that its not possible to accept a lower voltage (???) OR the regulator unit (despite what it says on paperwork) cannot handle such a draw in amperage as it says (60A). I think I'm onto a loser. In theory the regulator solution to the pressure problem makes sense, however in reality it aint that simple. Any more thoughts anyone ??

 

FURTHER UPDATE:

The below photograph shows the paperwork/instructions for the aforementioned regulator. You can see that it shows working voltage as DC10V - 50V. Could this be the problem ?

 

No ~ it's happy to work at any voltage from 10 to 50 volts.

You say "black and blue/slate wires connected to the fuse box and alternator" ~ Try connecting the black & blue wires to the positive output of the controller along with the thick red. Sorry ~ after re reading you have tried that.

As this does not work we need to get to the internal wiring of the motor. Is this possible?

WBO is just running the pump flat out & physically throttling the fluid output & depending on the pressure relief valve for any over pressure control. WBO has has the second type PS box & has suffered leaks, He is having it re-conned. (if the minister of finance allows ~ wife). Ignore the M&C Wilkinson wiring. They are doing the same thing with their rack.

Still searching for an internal pump wiring diagram

Excuse my mistake.

 

Hi Glyn,

Yes, tried that - still the same result (12V regardless of control knob). The wiring for the pump isn't easily accessible as far as I can tell. I do, however, have a second pump which I didn't use because the wires had been cut off too short to use. I'll investigate that later this evening to see if I can access the internals. Regards Keith

 

Apologise for my haste in reading! We just need an unobstructed feed to the motor wiring.

We know the controller is working from your bulb test.