Hi all. Ive been trying to research the spinners on my "new" 64 3.4S. The 4 of them are not all same. 1 is the 3 eared style which I had thought was called "continental" and 3 of them are the 2 stubby eared style of which I can find no reference other than a couple of pictures online. There is a pic and part number on the Jag Lovers site which I checked out but it appears to be incorrect. My green 66 has the "standard" nut with 2 longer ears. So, having searched this forum I thought it might be good to have a reference thread.

3 stubby ears (not called "continental"?)

2 stubby ears. what is this style is called?

2 longer ears (most common?)
I find that the tool for the 3 stubby eared nut is relatively east to get, but can find no reference to a tool for the 2 stubby eared nut.
I will check my parts listings, and report back but meantime please help fill in the blanks with part numbers or names. Also any good ideas how to get the 2 stubby eared nuts off without breaking anything (myself included)? Thanks!

 

my '65 S type came with the two-eared spinners. I think the non-eared ones are from E type? The three-eared one I have never seen.

There are two tools for the two-eared spinners, both available at SNG Barratt USA store. One is made of steel and the other one of wood.
Otherwise use the THOR hammer to tighten them or release them. No THOR hammer? use a medium sledgehammer. It will leave marks on the ears but it sure gets the job done.

 

My 1968 S type originally was a steel wheeled car but 6 years ago I changed it to wire wheels and fitted the continental spinners also known as the three eared spinners. These are part numbers C28685 left hand and C28684 right hand. There is a tool for removing the part number C28687 which you use the Thor raw hide mallet with. I actually purchased a tool from a guy which takes a 32mm socket and it allows me to use a breaker bar to release them. Don't ask me who the guy is as I can't remember. The S Type in the UK was originally fitted with the two big ear spinners C1102 RH and C1103 LH which you can buy the wooden wrench for part number SBS9306. There is also a metal version of this tool part number AC1016.
In Europe the S Type was fitted in certain countries such as Switzerland with the continental spinners (which were a standard fit to the E Type in the UK) and I went for these as you cannot remove the spinner and therefore the wire wheel without the tool and so for me it was a anti wheel theft device. Personal preference but I think they look neater.

I have never seen the small two eared spinner before and looking at the SNG web site I cannot find them for sale.

 

I have the "spare parts" listing books for the Mk2 and for the S-type. The drawing in the Mk2 book shows the 3 ear or lobe nut like you have Cass, and agrees with your number but also lists a 3rd set of numbers without a drawing which agrees with the listing for the apparent 2 eared nut shown in the S-type book. The drawing in the S-type book clearly shows the 2 short eared nut with a tool similar to the one used for the 3 lobe nut, but with 2 notches cut instead of the 3 reliefs. That book lists the part number for the nut as being C14891/2 left and right, and that tool being part #C14927.

#63 &64 clearly show a 2 ear nut and its tool- from the S-type book.

The listing in the Mk 2 book shows [part numbers for all 3 nuts but the drawing only shows the 3 ear nut and tool

#63 & 64 here show a 3 ear nut and tool- from the Mk2 book

One problem I am having is that "googling" the part number for the 2 eared nut or its tool lead me back to the 3 eared nut and Its tool with no actual listings for the 2 eared nut in question (this negates my initial comment that the Jag Lovers thread entry was incorrect). I guess that, for me the intent here becomes one of how to get the 2 eared nuts off so that I can replace them with the nuts that I have the proper tool for, and which seem fairly readily available. Maybe a Big Pipe wrench and some heat.

 

Jerry I will put a post on the S type forum and see if anyone has come across the stubby two ear spinner before. It is not something I have seen or heard of before. Glyn with his vast knowledge and research of the S type might have come across it before.

As for removing it a pipe wrench and a long pipe as an extension might crack it off. I found with the rear wheels on the S Type the wheel is too deeply set to allow the spinner to be removed without some interference between a long straight extension pipe and the body work The front wheels you can turn so it is away from the body. That is why my removal tool with the 32mm socket is so good as it takes the extension bar away from the body work. Heat might help but be careful not to damage the hub and bearings with too much. Make sure you are undoing it the right way. Right side is clockwise to undo where as left side is anticlockwise to undo. There should be an arrow indicating which way on the spinner.

 

The 2 stubby eared spinner was never used by Jaguar for compacts (from Mk1 onwards) but rather other makes for racing. They were aftermarket for Jaguar as were three long eared spinners like Aston Martin use. (at least for compacts. I cant talk for earlier than 1955)

Germany was the first country to ban the two long eared spinners, insisting on the 3 short ear spinner and that the knock-on hubcaps that came with wire wheels should not have protruding spinners. Some other European countries & Japan followed a few years later but all other countries like Australia & South Africa retained the home-market type with its twin long ‘ears’ until production ended. Lyons believed that the two long eared spinners looked better.

An adaptor was supplied with the 3 short eared spinners to ease loosening.

The Daimler Sovereign came with the 3 short eared spinner to make it globally acceptable in countries where Mercedes did not closely guard the Daimler brand. Which was very few markets. The Sovereign was really a UK car. They only produced just 355 of the 5,824 Sovereigns built that had left-hand drive – a paltry 6 per cent.


Never over tighten spinners or you will suffer loose wheels & spline wear. Allow the spinners to self tighten.
The spinners should never be over tightened or you stretch the hub threads which spells trouble & new hubs. They should just be firmly screwed on and will self tighten in use. The hide side of a Thor hammer should easily loosen a spinner if you have a flat tyre out on the road.

Max tightening by hand is easily achieved with this wooden spinner saver tool on long eared spinners

 

Thanks Glyn,
Your comment makes me wonder if the pic which I am seeing as the 2 stubby ear nut from they S-Type book is simply wrong (wouldn't be the only time). It is certainly different than the drawing from the Mk2 book, and usually that is intentional or else they would use the same drawing. Perhaps my copy of the book is an earlier one, and they were still available at the time. Can you clarify please?
I am also suspecting- going from my own searches- that Jaguar made the 2 ear obsolete and forced buyers of replacements to get the 3 ear nut instead. This would explain the lack of online reference to the first style.
I should also add- way down here- that this car is right hand drive, vin 1B1644dn. I am not sure of its history at this point.

 

My S Type Parts Manual 3 short lug European spinner. One of 4 spares manuals of varying vintage right up to the present green softcover. I had a global job prior to retirement that kept me flying 230 days a year for decades & I have never seen an S Type with a 2 short lug spinner anywhere worldwide.

 

The type with two short stubs looks to me like a quick compromise aimed at making something available short-term using a modified version of the original long eared tooling.

 

You could be right Peter. I've never seen one globally. S Types in '64 were Heinz 57 Varieties as they used up whatever they had in the factory. Well discussed on the Register. Unkindly called by our local club the bast-rd S Types. e.g. Jose's car is a 64 build as is Alan Wiedie's and there are some strange going's on, on both. Jose's car has the metal sunroof roof head lining but no metal sunroof as an example.

 

Gents the two short eared hubs were used from 1962 on all wire wheel cars for at least Germany and perhaps other countries. The rest of the world got the 2 long wing hubs. The 3 lobed spinner is a "Federal" spinner made to meet the new (1968 DOT) requirements. There are bulletins that cover this and I bet the S-Register will provide them soon.

 

We are talking about S Type 3.4 & 3.8 only here:

I will believe that for Germany only & for a short while. Many German destined S Types were fitted with the 3 lobed spinner. Denmark, Japan, Sweden and Switzerland got the 3 lobed spinner nevermind the intention in bulletins.

Jaguar bulletins are not the gospel of what actually happened in practice at Browns Lane.

Should the S Type Register print bumf from Bulletins I will counter it. Like the 2.6 litre engine never materialised. They ended up sticking with the straight port head 240 with SU Carbs in place of the lousy Solexes. Making it a genuine 100mph car.

 

Glyn as David's time is too valuable and since you have already decided to deny all here are some facts from the folks that built the cars. Yes there were occasional mistakes but they were corrected in other forms--like bulletins. Here is the original bulletin discussing the German market (initially of course later other countries followed). Sorry for the quality but the papers are old. In this case it is April of 1959.

You will note that in this period there were no separate spares and service bulletins--they were combined! The knock off "caps" were RH C14891 and LH C14892 with special tool C14927.
In an attempt to keep this just 'S' type (although all other models with Wire wheels followed the same scheme the 'S' type handbook E127/1 (first issue) on P. 21 clearly shows the two lobed knockoff. The "S' Type parts manual lists them as mentioned above as C14891 and C14892 with special tool C14927. This comes from J35 dated Aug 1964.

The first mention of the 3 lobed knockoff appears in the 1968 Jaguar E-Type IPL (March 1968).. Those parts are C28684 and C28685 (LH). Special tool C28687. These are known as "Federal" knockoffs and were designed to meet the 1968 DOT rules. Why the 10 year old cont. version was not acceptable is unknown other than that version did have short wings where as the Federal version had a more cam design.\

Of course the "S' type had ceased production and the 420 had replaced it and the MK2 (for one year) we checked the 420 parts manual. The only change from the spinner question was now countries requiring the 2 lobed conti. version had grown to include Japan and Switzerland.

So just to make sure we ran through the J12 series of manuals we have (Jaguar Master Parts Catalog(ue). J12 of Feb 1968 Shows as a NEW part the 3 lobbed Federal knockoffs. Prior years checked were Mar 1966 in which the special tool and knockoffs just mentioned are not on the Master documents. In other words they were not in the system!

We have seen a few 'S' types with all 3 types of spinners. In the US cars purchased for this market would have had wings with the only tool provided a hammer! Cars from Germany (normally GIs bringing them back had the two eared (short ears) or Conti. versions. We are not aware of any 'S' types being delivered from the factory with the "Federal) (or three lobed) spinners although since all of these function the same and are mechanically the same any time since 1967 and now (55 or more years) anything is possible. Best guess for the original poster is that at some point a cap was lost or damaged and they used a Federal cap for a replacement--certainly easier to find than the Conti. hub and the tool is a real issue to locate. Externally the tools look the same but of course the working end is quite different.

So to the final point that the bulletins are not the final word. That is a true statement but very miss-leading. We would rate the Jaguar bulletins at 99.99% correct in their thousands of issues. As to the 2.6L not sure what you are talking about. Was it a press release or an ad brochure? That is marketing if so and Jaguar is no more guilty than any other mfn. If you are talking about a technical bulletin please advise and we will research it!

 

Means nothing. Germany only legislated circa 1966 & the others probably 18 months later near S Type run out. I said I would accept Germany only for S Type which really started production in volume in 1964. I've been there & seen it with my own eyes. As mentioned previously I had a global Oilco job & plenty of weekends to go to car shows, discuss with owners & watch live F1 & MotoGP.

As for 2.6 engine you can research it in scribes books like Taylor. Who depend heavily on Jaguar's in house historians.

Regarding April 1959 Bulletin you said earlier 1962????. So which is it? The 2 lobe spinner was not prolific on S Types.

S-type production came to an end over the summer of 1968 at Browns Lane to make way for the new XJ6 range. Later in South Africa. We are not talking about the US where the 420 replaced the S Type.

Nothing I say is misleading. You have proven not to be the fountain of all knowledge.

 

Just been back through my photos of S Types I have come across of which several are from Europe. Most have steel wheels but I have this car from Switzerland which came over for the 60th anniversary of the Mk2 at Ryton Coventry 2019. If you zoom in you can see this is fitted with the stubby two eared spinners. It never occurred to me to look closely before as I assumed that they were the Continental three lobbed spinners.


From the chassis number 79789 it would be a late 66 or early 67 car. I also noticed it did not have a leaper on the bonnet but had a full length chrome strip unlike those with the leaper that had two chrome strips one long and one short either side of the leaper.

 

Ah Ha! ....But no leaper. Interesting. While I certainly can not say that either my 66 or this red 64 has its correct wheels or spinners, I will say that on each car they seem to have about the right level of "patina" to be original. Bearing in mind that I have SEEN in person a total of 4 S-types. I own 3 of them, one of those has steel wheels. I know NOT much.

 

And many Swiss cars had the 3 stubby spinner. I've seen plenty of them. Probably newer than this car in fairness ~ late 67 & 68 cars. Austria is another country I've seen plenty of cars with 3 stubby spinners. One of them outside my favorite music venue worldwide ~ The Musikverein in Vienna. My reference for setup of my High End audio system. It has a beautiful live acoustic. I've also seen long ear spinners in Austria. I think they are less fussy like Italy. Austria did not follow Germany with the sidelamps in the headlamps mandated in Germany & sidelamps there but not connected.

Anyway people must fit what they like the look of. I'm over arguing about spinners. I'm starting to think that it is model year influenced. One thing the Register has taught us is that there is no such thing as a standard S Type. From one weeks production to the next you can find differences.

Late German car ~ '68 ~ chatted to the owner.





Late US car. Special Colour by Jaguar called "New Red" ~ how original vs Carmen Red.














My car (No 4 SA Built Jan '66 but somehow registered Dec '65 ~ never resolved.) Sorry for poor cell phone pics.







On it's way to the large transporter to Cape Town




Protective plastic still on new bootlid plinth. Colour '76 XJ6 BRG ~ BRG is many different colours.





Engine compartment in process, Lots still to do. Even every wiring harness replaced with new on this car. See signature for full thread.

 

It is always a joy and an inspiration to look at photos of your restoration, Glyn.

 

A couple of years ago I was at a car show in Devon when I came across another S type almost identical to mine. It was an all original unmolested very late 1968 3.8s RHD with wire wheels. I took photos of our two cars side by side for comparison. One of the differences I noticed at the time was I had chosen curly hubbed wires for my conversion but this 1968 was fitted with its original flat hubbed wires. It was also fitted from factory with three eared federal hub nuts.
Another example of what Jaguar says in its literature and bulletins is not to be held as gospel. On the S Type forum we have come across plenty of anomalies especially around 1966 cars. It appeared that during a torrid time of factory and suppliers strikes Jaguar used what ever it could lay its hands on to get cars off the production line. With this late 1968 S Type perhaps what was in the bin on the last days of production were used to complete the cars, using three eared hub nuts even though the car was destined for the UK market.

My S Type on the right and a very late 1968 3.8s on the left.

S Types in semi profile

Close up of three eared hub nut on flat hubbed wire wheels.

 

Great photos and a very late 68 could have had both flat hubs and Federal hub nuts as both parts had come into the inventory at that point. Prior to then the parts were simply not in the inventory. Also covered several times in bulletins was the guidance for switching cars from curly wheels to flat wheels. Many it seems did that.