Friendly Forum Friends (long, questions at bottom)

Ok, so, after a long time down for significant maintance (~3 weeks), doing all new hoses (yes the one under the blower), new DCCV, new EGR, new water pump, new accessory belt, and new blower belt, I feel like coolant wise and belt/pulley wise my 03 STR should be good for another 100K or so.

I started to follow the coolant refill procedure, dumped a bunch in (after getting all the leaks gone), turned on the ignition, let the pumps do their thing, kept topping up as required and got to the point where I have max fill on the reservoir - all good right?

Next step was to cap stuff up and turn the car over, so I hit the starter and no dice - check battery 10.5 V. As the battery is newish (about 1 year), I pull it and put it on the trickle charge overnight. Having good voltage the next evening, I reinstall the batt.

Check for leaks again - none. Hit the starter again, and the car turns over and attempts to run but sounds HORRID! Seemed like it was missing (like when I had a bad coil). As horrid as it was, I gave it some revs and at elevated RPM, say on the plus side of 2500, things smoothed out a bit.

But, since the running of the motor was so scary I shut the operation down.

Tomorrow I can put the scanner on it to see what code it wants to give me.

However, my questions are these:

If I say I have had significant belt squeal (so slip) for about 2 months, then replaced with all new belts, then removed the battery and reinstalled, should I have expected the machine to run horridly as it attempts to adjust for "new found" air flow at low rpm based on having installed new, non-slipping belts?

So, did the car "learn" and compensate for the belt slip, such that now when it is gone, and the "right" amount of air is flowing down the intake by virtue of new beltage, does the car have an amount of "re-learn" time?

If so, or at least something of the like, is it prudent to continue to follow the instructions on the coolant refill - which includes running the car up to temp with the blower and heater on high? This seems realllllly scary to me.

yes I'm sure nothing that wasn't supposed to go in the engine, went into the engine during disassembly/re-assembly. And yes there is oil in it - trust me, I had a heart attack at first - did I remember to refill????? yes.

As always, any help, thoughts, ideas appreciated.

Kind Regards

 

What exactly was the voltage when you reinstalled the battery? If it's less than 13 volts the vehicle may not run properly and misfire.

NBCat

 

As the battery was off, the PCM's lost its learned values, so it does NOT remember the ones you're worrying about.

It needs to relearn and the book way to do it is to start and idle for a while (5 mins I think). It should smooth out as it does that. To do more ideally you'd have IDS but instead just drive it gently. Part of the relearn is it wants to see engine slowing with no gas so do some "coast downs" - get to say 60 and just let it slow (no braking) to 10 or 20 mph. Do it 3 times. (This means a quiet road! Straight and level would help.)

Before that, iif it won't idle smoothly I'd be worried but I don't actually know what I'd do

It needs sudden big peak currents to fire injectors and coils so relies on the battery at various times, such as at idle.

 

At re-install of the battery I was at 12.3V.

I wasn't sure about the "re-learning", so JagV8's comments are good reference.

Another thing that seemed possible (as the plugs/plug wires weren't touched) is a possible air leak some where, so somewhere along the intake there might be a second source of air that is getting in un-metered.

Will pick up some starting fluid this evening so I can try and start an engine fire, maybe find an air leak, and hopefully also get the scanner on to pull some codes.

Is opinion that I SHOULD let it try to idle for 5 mins or so, as lumpy and scary as that may be? Then shut her down if no improvement in running condition is realized?

Thanks again for help....

 

If you can read OBD live data the (long term) fuel trims will tell you whether it's an air leak. On battery reconnect they should start at 0. Air leak they'll go +ve. Any more than (say) 5 and not looking too good. More than 10 and get hunting! 25 and you get a code (probably needs 2 warm up cycles to set - see the codes PDF to check).

On an STR almost all leaks will move LTFT on both banks.

 

Well, initial check of the car resulted in the P0102 and P0112, IAT and MAF codes. Cleared them and ran it again, a bit longer this time.

Still ran really rough, interestingly enough no more codes, odd.

Friend helping thought exhaust cloud was indicating fuel getting into exhaust - which kind of jives with the way it feels running, like it is missing, so if I'm not getting spark due to bad plug or fouled coil, I would not necessarily code out as a coil issue right away, would I? Seems that one would need some time to get to a "steady state" operation before the system could determine such, yes?

Anyway, next step is to investigate coils to see if any oil got forced passed seals when the car had it's coolant issue and heated up.....crossing my fingers that I find some goo in the ends of a couple coils.....

Any more thoughts?

 

When really poorly, it'll struggle to know what codes to flag and may even just not flag any.

I hadn't realised it was running anything like so badly. When I referred to idling it was on the belief it was fixed and merely needed to relearn the tiny adjustments. Emphasis being on tiny.

 

Horrid horrid horrid

Pulled each coil on plug, some with a bit of oil, none with a "pool". Re-installed with dieelectric grease applied.

Let the animal run a bit longer, and gathered the following codes:
P0300 - random misfire
followed by p0302, 3, 4, 5, 6 - the individual cylinders
also had
p1313 - cat bank 1
p1314 - cat bank 2
and
P0327 - knock bank 1

Don't have fuel trim data, but fuel pressure is showing 42 - have no idea if this is high or low (I did replace fuel filter during all the other business)

Can't run really long, so P1000 comes up.....

Have the batt on the charger again......
Have all new plugs ready to go

 

I can't see plugs are relevant, especially so many cylinders.

I don't get this. If it basically ran OK then you replaced hoses, belts, etc how can it now not run OK???

hmm, EGR. Major air leak or something? That's: now, rather than before you swapped it.

I think you need to think what was disturbed / disconnected / etc, especially electrical stuff. Is it still disconnected / swapped / chafed / cut through or something.

 

Yeah....kinda where my head was at too - something small, something that changed during the reinstallation of stuff....

Basically, leading up to the tear down, I had a small coolant leak, that got bigger, position was rear of engine, so was thinking return line under blower. About the same time I was having belt squeal at cold start up. Then the leak became massive on a trip home, spiked heat for a very short amount of time (the time to get to the side of an on ramp), and call for a tow.

So, did the coolant drain, replaced a lot of hoses (including the return line under the blower), replaced belts SC and accessory, replaced most gaskets (the only one I didn't was the big square one under the intake plenum (?)), replaced DCCV, replaced EGR, replaced water pump, replaced thermostat, and replaced fuel filter.

Was running fine on the road prior to shut down when my "leak" went to massive....

What is the typical operating pressure of the fuel system? I did not purge or otherwise charge the fuel system when I swapped out the filter, and my Matco SPX scan tool is showing fuel press at 42, which seems low.

TPS at idle (if you want to call it that) is showing 8 degrees or so, and I can watch it change as I apply the accelerator, so I think TPS is functioning ok, and the throttle motor is obviously working.

When I pulled each COP, they all seemed reasonable - a bit of oil here and there, but no filling of a plug galley with oil as with a blown valve cover gasket.

Connections that I can readily see appear to be in good form, and I'm really hesitant to start yanking stuff back off....without some idea where I need to be looking....

Feels like I'm missing something retarded.....but a challenge to determine where/how to start chasing....

 

I have to say I don't know. Maybe a tech has done this and does know.

An air leak could cause havoc. If it'll go closed loop you can at least look at the (long term) fuel trims. They start at 0 on battery disconnect and really should be no worse than about 5%. Both banks similar.

I'm sure each sensor has typical readings at idle (or other speeds) and a real tech can go round them quickly, kinda going "fine, fine, fine, NOT FINE". Most will default but an experienced jag tech even knows that and where to look.

 

Well, did new plugs all the way around - figured what the heck, a maintenance item that can be addressed.

Cleared the codes I had, had the batt up to 12.54, and fired it off again.

Still lumpy as hell, let it run about 1 min or so, engine light didn't come on, but asked the scanner to pull codes and got the P0300 random misfire.

So, now, think I'm going to start disassembly, looking for things that may not have gone back cleanly.

One area I am curious about is step 28 of the supercharger removal process, where it says "make sure correct location of ground strap is noted"....what exactly is this, as I don't recall seeing what I would consider a "traditional ground strap" - ie, a braided line with ring terminals of some sort on each end, or at least a ring terminal coming from a wire harness.....

 

If you are getting that many misfires, I doubt its going to be ignition related as far as plugs and coils go. It could be something like a crank/cam sensor, but then you should be seeing a code for that. I would look more to a large vacuum leak, likely the intake or a hose that might not have been put on all the way. If you have some brake parts cleaner or carb cleaner, spray it around the intake and vacuum lines with the car running and see if it changes anything.

Those codes for the cats were interesting, if they are plugged up they could cause misfires as well. You could try disconnecting the exhaust between the headers and cats and see if that makes an improvement or not. If your car was running fine before all the work was done, then I would probably rule that out however. Also, if the EGR is stuck open you could get some misfires and cat codes.

 

As always, thanks for the feedback.

I think we're all on the same page, that the ignition codes are not "real", but a result of something else being improper. But, as I hadn't done the plugs, I figured it would give me a chance to check each coil, spark plug valley, and plug. Everything seemed reasonable.

I sprayed some starting fluid on either side of the TB area, but could notice no real difference - but it's running so #%#%#!!! I don't know if a guy could tell.

If we stick to the three biggies, air, fuel, and spark, I think it breaks down a bit like this:

1) Air
Leak of some type, some where - likely cause during reassembly/tear down.
- Pursue source of leak via volatile expectorant applied to potential offending locations
- Investigate hoses/lines for obvious signs of failure to seal
- Remove, investigate, and rework previous efforts (this one sux)

2) Fuel
Fuel starvation of some type some where. Not real sure how to chase this one....
- Verify injectors are working??? (how?)
- Verify fuel pressure/flow is adequate (how?)
- Verify fuel is actually being sent from tank (how?)
- Investigate fuel filter install

3) Spark
Failure to achieve spark for some reason, some where - not real sure on where to go here either...
- Verify coils are operating (how, best way?)
- Verify that spark signals are getting to the coils (how, best way?)
- Verify plugs are in working order (did that this weekend)


At the end of the day, feels like a whole lot of chasing around for me....which is ok. Hard part is that I think the best way to verify some of these things is with the motor running, which in my case is a painful experience.

Did have a couple other questions - how exactly does the car determine "misfire"? If a plug is bad, but the coil does his job, do I still get "misfire"? Or if the plug is fine, and the coil fails his task, do I get misfire? Or if an injector fails to squirt, but the spark rings true, do I get a misfire? In short, with a "misfire" code, how sophisticated is the system, and what is it really telling me about what is going on?

Also, on the fuel system, the schrader valve on the fuel rail - when should it spurt fuel? If I turn the ignition on, the pump primes the fuel system, yes? If I hit the schrader and relieve the pressure, with the ignition on but the car not running, does the car understand that it just lost fuel pressure, and cycle the pump again - in which case I should be able to achieve a fairly continous spray of fuel from the schrader? Or, does the system prime once, and if I relieve the pressure, it has no knowledge of that activity? Just trying to figure out how I might diagnose a fuel delivery issue.....

Anyway, thanks for the thoughts again, always good to have something to try.....

 

Oh, one other note of curiosity.....

When I turn on the ignition, let pumps prime, then shut the ignition down - I can hear what I can only describe as sounds of mechanical linkages returning to home......almost like the TB motor is trying to return the butterfly to some type of "home" position. Never noticed it before - but the sound is plainly audible with the driver's door open, and turning off the ignition. In my mind I imagine a solenoid activating to pull back on a linkage of some nature - just what the sound brings to mind......seems to come from center of the car, near the firewall - believe I could hear it from inside the cabin with the door shut as well.

Again, not sure if it's indicative of anything, just a behavior that seems "new" or at least recent.....

 

After looking over this again, I think it might be worth replacing the battery as a starting point. Perhaps it is still under warranty so it might be no expense anyways. It shouldn't have died from sitting for only a couple of weeks, so it might not be sending enough voltage to the ecu and ignition components despite being recharged.

I think you are getting air spark and fuel just based on that the car does start and run (albeit poorly). I don't have the specs for the fuel pressure at the rail, but if pressure or volume is low, that could cause a misfire across all cylinder due to lack of the proper amount of fuel. The pressure should be very similar for a key on engine off and engine running, so testing it (with a fuel pressure gauge) without starting it should suffice. You mentioned the fuel filter, are you sure you didn't install it backwards? If not marked, the flat end should be the exit towards the engine and the rounded end should be from the tank.

The engine is going to detect a misfire any time the proper cylinder isn't firing at the proper time or isn't burning the correct mixture of fuel and air. I wish it were more specific, but it won't tell you if its injector, coil or plug or air.

When you hit the schrader valve on the rail, its should squirt fuel out. When you turn the key on, it just primes the pump so the rail builds a certain pressure. It won't re-prime/run until the car is started.

With the air system, I would be sure to spray all around the whole intake, not just the throttle body. Technically, the preferred method for checking vacuum leaks is with a hand-held propane tank, or at least with propane for safety reasons, but brake parts cleaner and the like are usually fine. There are many vacuum sources and air injection sources all over from the brake booster to egr and other lines that are supplying air into the manifold.

 

If the battery is not above 13 volts, the vehicle will not run correctly. The electrical system in these cars require constant voltage and amperage so everything functions correctly, if not, you will end up with different codes and chasing what appear to be vacuum leaks.

 

One of the ways misfires are detected is by monitoring the sensors on the rotating engine parts for tiny variations which they should have for each successful spark. So anything that stops the cylinder providing the extra push can be flagged. It has no idea why an expected minor jerk failed to occur, so can't tell if it's air/fuel/spark.

However, it can tell various things about electrical stuff such as shorted out injectors/coils/etc and will flag those if it detects them.

 

Thanks all for the responses - I do appreciate the thoughts.

I love that NBCat is consistent with his battery recommendations - I hope he's right, I'll connect the van tonite and give a try.

Quartz and JagV8 - thanks for the details, and the more and more I think on this (mostly because time to investigate is nil during the week), the more and more I think I am getting fuel - I've never seen a code indicating otherwise, which leaves me to the battery again, or an air leak - where I'm inclined to pursue a looksee with the propane.

Only other thing I can think is that we disturbed something during tear down/reassembly - which would really suck to try and track down, in particular if it is something not at a connector end, but inside a harness loom (scarrrrry).

So tonite is the night we give it all the juice it wants and see what happens.....

Thanks again guys, I'll let you know how it turns out....

 

Nuts

Hooked up the van (running) to the jag....checked batt at 13.24...and fired it off.

Same result - kind of.....Still ran horribly rough, and had multiple misfire codes, but their positions changed a little bit. Previously it was 2,3, 4, 5, and 6 - this time it was 1,3,5, 6, 8.

Hope begins to slip away.....