2003 S Type R

This is my first post here, I've thoroughly scoured the forum for years and have always found the information necessary to get me through many different scenarios, as well as having downloaded & reviewed the service manuals, wiring diagrams, and other resources etc. from jagrepair.com. Unfortunately, this time I'm at a loss.

Here's the scenario:

A little over a year ago, I experienced my first situation where my STR died on the highway. It happened when I hit the pedal to pass another vehicle rather aggressively, the car accelerated as I have come to grow very fond of, then just died instantly. I coasted nearly a mile to the next exit ramp, and coasted to a stop. Car would just turn over, but not start. I checked everything I knew how to without access to the internet, then ultimately gave up & had it towed. The repair shop diagnosed it as a failed driver side fuel pump. I felt pretty foolish, since I did not know at that time, the STR had two fuel pumps. When the car died, I could still hear the passenger side fuel pump priming away so I didn't think it was a fuel pump issue. I declined the repair and had it towed to my house so I could just replace the actual driver's side fuel pump within the assembly rather than pay for a whole new assembly plus labor. I purchased the exact Pierburg driver's side pump, replaced it, and have had perfect reliability for well over a year now.

Fast forward to two weeks ago...same exact scenario (almost)...was driving on some fantastic mountain roads, then a C7 corvette pulls out in front of me & starts driving 25 mph for several miles, then when the straight away stretch appears, he floors it to get rid of me and I step on it too, I stayed on him for several turns, then once again my car suddenly died completely. This time I knew to check to hear both fuel pumps priming and sure enough they both were. Car just turned over but won't start. Checked all fuses, swapped similar relays for fuel delivery related items, checked the engineering test mode function on the dash and all fuel pump & filter info was within acceptable range, battery was fine as well, inertia switch was not tripped. Ended up having it towed to my house so I could think things through more logically.

Here's where I'm currently at two weeks later:

-Both fuel pumps prime up as normal when ignition switch is turned on
-Inertia switch is not tripped
-All fuses in engine compartment, trunk, and passenger side front have been check out
-Ignition coils have been pulled out and show similar resistance readings compared to each other
-Ignition coil supply voltage has been checked at the harness, left & right side both have greater than 10.5 volts (Pin 1 & Ground)
-Ignition coil ground circuit has been checked at the harness, left & right side both show less than 5 ohms (Pin 3 & Ground)
-Engineering Test Mode shows fuel pressure for both pumps are within acceptable range, and fuel filter within acceptable range
-Battery has adequate voltage & also during drop while starter is engaging
-I pulled both the driver's side and passenger side fuel pump assemblies out of the tank to make sure the hoses are all connected as well as wiring connected properly
-I checked that the vehicle's security system is operating properly since I read this can be a cause to make the car not start
-I swapped the fuel pump relay with a known good relay to eliminate a bad relay
-I removed the fuel filter, which I believe has never been changed on the car (116k miles), and black slimy fuel poured out. I purchased a new fuel filter, installed it, and still no start.
-Looking inside the fuel tank, on both sides when I have the fuel pump assemblies out, the tank looks clear to the bottom.
-No codes are showing up at all with my code reader, no codes were existing beforehand either.

Basically, everything was perfect until that corvette pulled out in front of me.

I'm planning to diagnose the secondary fuel pump driver next, but honestly, I'm not really that handy and don't know where to go next.

Background on the car...116k miles, it has been meticulously maintained, spark plugs have been changed 4 times, all the fuel injectors have been replaced due to one bad injector, many other unrelated preventative maintenance items completed as well. Any help where to go next would be greatly appreciated.

The biggest disappointment is that if my car didn't die, that C7 wouldn't have been able to get rid of me!

 

Hey! How In the world can you expect us to help with all those clear details you've provided? We are much more accustomed to brief, vague pleas written in textese...

Does your engine have a test connection port on the injector fuel rail? I can't remember the details, but some late models do not. But if so equipped, I'd suggest connecting a mechanical fuel pressure gauge. Compare this reading to specs and to what your scanner is reporting.

As far as the lack of codes, you may have encountered a quirk in the OBD II reporting logic. The system is designed to report any emissions-related faults. But a no-start condition? That's not an emissions fault, so even if the computer knows what's wrong, it isn't programmed to tell you. Basically, don't let the lack of codes trick you into thinking the computer isn't seeing anything wrong. It's kinda like standing in the wrong line at the DMV. You will have to continue your troubleshooting. I think physically checking the fuel pressure is a good place to begin.

 

Thanks for the reply & advice Karl!

I realized a few more details I forgot to mention in my writeup:

-I had searched for a test port on the fuel rail because I wanted to check the fuel pressure mechanically rather than relying on the sensor readout; however, it appeared there was no test port. I confirmed this in the service manual diagrams as well. Sounds like there's a special Jaguar tool you can buy and install on the line which gives you the test port to hook up to.

-When I installed the new fuel filter yesterday, primed up the system 4 or 5 times before trying to start, then cranked away several times, I decided to pull the new fuel filter back out. From everything I read, I knew it was about to get messy because of the pressure for this car (wasn't messy when I swapped out the old one because I had not tried starting the car for several days prior). Much to my surprise, no fuel came out anywhere. This made me think I have an issue with the fuel pressure since it should have been pretty messy due to not allowing any time for the pressure to lower. At the same time, both pumps are priming up just like they always have (at least audibly), so i would have guessed there would have been at least some fuel come out when removing the fuel filter.

-The other item I forgot to mention...I have also disconnected several ground locations, including the battery, and cleaned everything up and reinstalled since I had read on other threads about some corroded grounds causing some pretty strange issues for this car, including no start issues.

 

I'd say you're hot on the trail. This is a YUGE clue.

How much fuel is showing in the tank? I'm trying to remember how the fuel system works with two pumps on the STR, with the saddle-shaped tank. Do the pumps both simultaneously feed the engine? Or does one pump move fuel from one side of the "saddle" over to the other side? I'd have to dig through the training guides to be sure. Just thinking out loud, but I'm wondering if you've got an indication problem as part of the equation. Maybe one side of the tank is actually empty and that pump is sucking air. My brain hurts trying to work out the scenario, so don't read too much into this. But it might be worthwhile to add several gallons of fuel and see if that helps. Just a thought, before digging too deeply elsewhere. Make sure the gauge responds correctly, too.

 

The 4.2 litre engine does not have a shrader valve on the fuel rail. The easiest way to check fuel pressure is by using a smart phone connected via the OBD port with a Bluetooth adapter and the Torque app.

The second fuel pump comes on under load and WOT on the supercharged X202. The fuel system specifications are below:

 

Hmmm... Both instances happened with heavy acceleration. Could there be a check valve (or similar) that normally only comes into play when the second pump is pressurized? Maybe it stuck open and thus you lose all pressure when the second pump is switched off.

 

Karl, we won't know until the OP connects to the vehicle and posts the results of the tests to see if there's a drop in the fuel pressure.

 

This might be correct for some models. But my 2003 STR Does have a Schrader valve
mine is a ROW model.
also I have noticed discrepancies between the Shrader valve and the OBD11 Pressure read out when the fuel pressure regulator is failing. So beware.

 

When looking inside the fuel tank, it appears to be the same fuel level on each side when pulling out the pumps. My fuel gauge on the dash was reading slightly over 3/4 full, and the level inside the tank on both sides appear to reflect this reading accurately...forgot to mention that both times this has happened to me was when the tank was nearly full which makes it such a delight to deal with while removing the pumps.

Here's some additional detailed info attached specific to the STR's fuel system from the technical guide.

 

Thanks for the advice for checking fuel pressure via the OBD port by means of the Torque App. That wasn't something I was familiar with, so I've made a purchase and I should have it in hand on Saturday. Quick question on this process, since I won't be able to start the vehicle to verify fuel pressure is per spec at idle and during throttle engagement, would I just be looking at the real time data for fuel pressure during turning the key on (when the pumps are priming) as well as when the engine is turning over?

 

You need Ign II or engine running for OBD. May be awkward to watch during crank (don't think I've ever tried as mine starts so quickly - that'll jinx it....

 

Connect Torque app via OBD port and turn ignition switch to ON without engaging the starter. The fuel pump should prime the system at around 3 bar. If there is no signal from the CPK when the starter is engaged, the PCM shuts off the fuel pump.

 

Your car DOES have a Schrader valve. It's on the passenger side at the back of the engine. I had a 2005 and connected a mechanical fuel pressure gauge up where I could read it thru the windshield.
BUT the last year STR (2006) did NOT have the test port. It's confusing.

Take a look at one of my old threads it shows where the fuel test port is.

Fuel Pressure Testing
.
.
.

 

I submitted this reply 4 days ago but still hasn’t appeared in the thread yet, so trying again…

Schrader Valve on Fuel Rail - Not sure how I missed this one after searching all over with flashlight & reviewing the diagrams, etc. but sure enough it's right there on the passenger side of the fuel rail near the fuel temperature sensor. I will need to purchase a fuel pressure gauge now to check the pressure mechanically.

OBD Scan Tool (Bluetooth) for Real Time Data via App - I received this today, and have been testing it on several different cars just to be certain I'm recording real time data correctly. On the STR, I wanted to make sure the real time fuel pressure data was seeing the fuel pressure sensor (since it was reading 0 PSI with the ignition in position II after the fuel pumps both primed up), so I unplugged the fuel pressure sensor and sure enough the real time reading instantly changed (it jumps up to 70.1 PSI instantly with the fuel pressure sensor unplugged, then back to 0 PSI once plugged back in). Not that this is useful info, I just wanted to make sure the App's real time reading was seeing this sensor, and it looks like it is.

I've attached the data log file for my real time data (ignore the coolant temp, I forgot to turn that parameter off prior to recording). Here's a description to accompany the attached real time data log:

• Time 0.00 to 14.40 - Ignition at position II, both fuel pumps primed up as they always have (had someone turning the key while I was in the back, seat removed, rubber caps removed from the fuel pump assembly access locations, so I could feel and hear them both priming as normal).
• Time 14.70 to 19.50 - Unplugged fuel pressure sensor harness (at 14.70) plugged back in (at 19.50)
• Time 19.50 to 32.10 - No action, just getting into car
• Time 32.40 to 34.20 - Turning key to start position, starter engaging as normal, engine turning over. RPMs indicated on data, Ever so minuscule reading on the fuel pressure.
• Time 36.90 to 41.10 - Trying to start again. RPMs indicated, very tiny reading for fuel pressure.
• Time 53.10 to 56.10 - Trying to start again. RPMs indicated, but this time no fuel pressure indicated (I'm not sure that matters as it was so negligible during the previous readings during starting)

One thing out of the ordinary, which has never happened before to my knowledge, is the electric cooling fan was turned on after trying to start the car several times, then it would turn off after awhile, then back on for awhile, then back off. Coolant temp was reading consistent and representative of the outdoor air temperature where the car has been sitting (around 84F). I never recall that fan coming on when the car has not ran (esp when it hasn't ran for weeks).

 

Sorry, I didn't see your earlier post that had been locked for moderation.
I'm not sure why it was, it's an automatic function and it seems it is sometimes a little over efficient.

 

Phantom calls for cooling fan? The last time (only time) I had phantom calls for anything, it was my windows going down on their own. I know you stated your battery was "fine" and "had adequate voltage", but what is fine and adequate for most every car on the planet, may not be fine or adequate for a Jaguar. After sitting overnight, not on a charger, what is the voltage across the battery posts before you attempt to start the car?

My window issues were due to a "fine, adequate voltage" battery, and were cured with a new battery.

I'm not an expert by any means, but reading on here for the past year tells me there are experts here and they usually ask to check battery voltage first. Back to morning brew . . .

 

Great point on the battery voltage...I should have been more careful when I stated it had adequate voltage, I had just read some other posts on what the car would need as a bare minimum to start up, and I remember times in the past (winter season comes to mind) when the car turned over far slower and it still started up fine.

I just ran out & connected my multimeter & set my phone up to record video (my second set of eyes) while I tried to start it up & here are the results:

• Voltage before doing anything - 12.60 volts
• Voltage while turning the key to position II when both pumps are priming up (& whatever else comes on in this key position) - 12.30 to 12.35 volts
• Voltage while starter is engaging for approximately 5 seconds in duration - hovering at about 11.18 volts (dipped to 11.10 for a split second)
• Voltage afterwards - 12.58 volts

I should note that I did have the car on my Deltran Battery Tender Plus yesterday afternoon. I may need to check again once the car has sat a few days with no charger hooked up. But would the car have started up with the above voltages noted today, or is this inadequate voltage for a startup? Also, I'm thinking this wouldn't have caused the car to die suddenly during acceleration.

 

The readings you posted are fine. 2003+ models are subject to some very odd quirks due to low prestart voltage, even if the starter speed seems normal. With most other cars, prestart voltage is barely a concern unless the starter can't do its job and get the engine going. Meanwhile, our cars are WAY more sensitive and certain computer modules will act up, even if the battery seemed fine if judging solely on starter behavior. I mention this because we've had numerous cases where a guy insists the battery is good because the engine started right up.

With that said, I've never heard of low prestart voltage affecting the fuel pump operation. However, I would suggest keeping your battery tender connected. Since the battery obviously isn't getting charged by the alternator right now, keep the poor thing topped off as a precaution to avoid inadvertently introducing other problems.

Back to the lack of fuel pressure: Your job now is to figure out why. You can hear and feel the pumps running, but what gives?

Are the pumps not picking up fuel for some reason? Is there some way they could be picking up air? Or clogged pickup screens?

Are the pumps working correctly, but that pressure is being dumped back into the tank? Perhaps a loose line or some kind of valve stuck open?

A blocked line or plugged filter?

I'd look over the plumbing arrangement and look for an easily accessible spot. Break open a connection and connect a mechanical pressure gauge. Or use a length of hose you can route to a bucket, well away from the car. Be careful, as you could have around 50 PSI or so. Wrap a rag around the end of the line to limit spraying. Then work through different points in the system to find where you have pressure and where you don't.

 

RESOLVED!!

Karl, thank you for making the point to go back through the plumbing. Although I had pulled both pump assemblies at the start of this whole issue, when I pulled the driver's side pump assembly, I had difficulty as usual with a near full tank of gas trying to disconnect all the hoses to be able to pull the pump out. I had noticed the hose that connects to the top of the assembly (which directly feeds the engine fuel delivery pipe) was off; however, I thought that I had accidentally pulled it off during my attempt at disconnecting the other hoses. When I reassembled everything, I connected this hose, but not securely enough.

After reviewing the STR's fuel tank flow diagrams again, I decided to trace things back from the engine fuel delivery pipe, starting at the fuel filter. When I pulled the driver's side fuel pump assembly this time, I noticed that same hose was off again. This time, it is definitely installed properly. Once I had everything back together, I knew this was the solution before even trying to start it...the OBD Bluetooth App I just purchased was showing 20 psi on the live data soon as i turned the key to position II. I turned it off & back on again to prime two more times and I was sitting at 41 psi. She started right up instantly!

I took a 15 minute drive, and recorded my real time data, I'm noticing the fuel pressure is reading at 55 psi during idle, and 53-55 psi during driving. I accelerated about mid to 3/4 throttle to see where the pressure would go, and it was still the same 53-55 psi. Seeing the the spec is around 42 psi at idle, is this something I need to worry about?

I have attached a photo showing exactly where the hose had come off the driver's side fuel pump assembly in hopes that it may help someone out down the road ...

In any case, thank you to everyone on this thread. I wasn't very confident I would be able to get it running again, and turns out it was such a simple fix.


Driver's side fuel pump assembly - location where hose had disconnected causing engine to die and no start.

 

Most righteous and excellent troubleshooting! (Sorry, just got home from seeing Bill & Ted Face the Music) Glad to hear you got the car running again.

For the fuel pressure, is there a vacuum line at the fuel pressure regulator? If this is like other cars, the regulator adjusts fuel pressure based on engine load, that is manifold pressure. Make sure this line is in good condition and is securely attached at both ends. If all good, you may need a new regulator