2000 4.0 engine destruction. Lots of pictures
#1
10-03-2012, 10:41 PM
2000 4.0 engine destruction. Lots of pictures
Ok so my eyes are bleeding after searching every post on the topic, so i'll be as breif as possible without letting to much information slip.
1st off brought the car 3 months ago, body good, interior perfect, mileage 220,00kms. cost $800.
Yes that's right, apparently the engine overheated and thought to need new head gaskets.
So I drove it onto a trailer and got it home, job one was tie rod, initial tow company thought this a good place to attach the tie down to!! they also hit the sump and cracked the case (luckily its removable and I welded it back up.
Threw it back together, found the pipe that joins the 2 culinger heads to pump cracked, leaning away from cylinder head gaskets as the hose would go surely before a plastic pipe.
Threw codes p0304 and P0302, leant back towards a head gasket because it stuttered when warm, and at the time i thought 2 and 4 were adjoining cylinders, took it to the gas station 2 miles down the road, all good, got back and the light still on but ran OK, now I say OK because I was babying the car, so went to go to work (100 mile each way ) ambitious I know but hey, I'm an optimist.
Got 25 miles down the road and things were not good, so i turned around and took the car home spluttering and unable to maintain idle, not to bad on acceleration, 5 miles from home the check engine light flashing and throwing p0302 0300, 0302, 0304, you get the idea, a mile away i thought a rod had gone (you know the noise ot a rod banging around inside an engine, for a horrid moment I thought my weld had failed and the engine had run dry, but the oil was perfect, no emulsion to show head-gasket failure, and lever perfect.
Okay you can skip the above because here's my pull down, 1st the coil packs, 1, 3,4 were newer looking, no2, had a green label and also had this
So i guess that's P0302 taken care of, next the plugs. hoping to find a fouled number 4 to take care of the other code but thats when disaster struck, the plug was very hard to remove, i've never broken a plug before but seriously thought I might, this is the plugs in order.
Yup no.4 is destroyed, a quick look down the hole revealed less than a smooth piston top,
thought I'd throw a compression test in just to ruin what was left of my day.
150-145-150-0!
So I though probably a piston destroyed but couldn't work out what would do just one, timing chain would surly knock all the valves? My first thought was to look under the car and see if i could access no.4 rod to take the head off and remove the piston and slide another one in and I'd be done.
The engine gods had not even made an appearance yet.
Onto side 2. 4 coils looked good, encouraged I pulled the plugs, each one got worse and worse, no.5 and 6 were closed, 7 the electrode was just free floating and no.8, well that's just a joke.
Okay another compression test 75-0-75-0
So this morning I pulled the intake just to see
Looks like the valve to me, no sign of the valve stem???
Obviously i have to pull the front covers off and take the heads off, but 'm planning for the worse, i got excited reading the ls 3.9 would be a viable replacement if the bores and pistons are toast, but then you need the original heads.
So what to do?
My questions are this, I need to know will the liners take a boring out to fit the 4.2 pistons, are the wrist pin and crown heights the same,
I know the ford has a slightly less length throw to make it smaller capacity.
I may be able to place some rover pistons as i have strong links to the racing side of these engines. But thats only if the larger capacity is made from bore rather than stroke. Unsure about 5-6-7-8 compression results, may have some bent valves?? again not sure of cause.
Best case scenario, valve seats worn, need replacing adn some new valves, worst case is 3 pistons gone and some destroyed bore walls, and heads destroyed.
I'm guessing at that point I could theoretically put new valves and guides on the heads, get a ls 3.8 block and put a few new pistons on the jag rods and put the rotating assembly into the 3.9 block.
The rebuilt 4.0 heads and I'm good to go? I've been looking for another block and hte ONLY one I have found is a breakers (wreckers) 200,000 on the clock and $2,500. I'm going to buy another car tomorrow but I would like to fix this one and use it in the winter.
So anyone think my 3.9 block and rebuilt heads will work, or should I stick to finding a good used 4.0 complete engine and just swap it out (may take some time).
Sorry for the long post but I'm new to these engines and i was quite encouraged at the possibility of finding an easy replacement, but that thought is slowly slipping away with each new thread i turn up.
Any help is greatly sought after and helpful. I will start looking for hte manual tonight so i can at least know where to start removing the heads. :-)
1st off brought the car 3 months ago, body good, interior perfect, mileage 220,00kms. cost $800.
Yes that's right, apparently the engine overheated and thought to need new head gaskets.
So I drove it onto a trailer and got it home, job one was tie rod, initial tow company thought this a good place to attach the tie down to!! they also hit the sump and cracked the case (luckily its removable and I welded it back up.
Threw it back together, found the pipe that joins the 2 culinger heads to pump cracked, leaning away from cylinder head gaskets as the hose would go surely before a plastic pipe.
Threw codes p0304 and P0302, leant back towards a head gasket because it stuttered when warm, and at the time i thought 2 and 4 were adjoining cylinders, took it to the gas station 2 miles down the road, all good, got back and the light still on but ran OK, now I say OK because I was babying the car, so went to go to work (100 mile each way ) ambitious I know but hey, I'm an optimist.
Got 25 miles down the road and things were not good, so i turned around and took the car home spluttering and unable to maintain idle, not to bad on acceleration, 5 miles from home the check engine light flashing and throwing p0302 0300, 0302, 0304, you get the idea, a mile away i thought a rod had gone (you know the noise ot a rod banging around inside an engine, for a horrid moment I thought my weld had failed and the engine had run dry, but the oil was perfect, no emulsion to show head-gasket failure, and lever perfect.
Okay you can skip the above because here's my pull down, 1st the coil packs, 1, 3,4 were newer looking, no2, had a green label and also had this
So i guess that's P0302 taken care of, next the plugs. hoping to find a fouled number 4 to take care of the other code but thats when disaster struck, the plug was very hard to remove, i've never broken a plug before but seriously thought I might, this is the plugs in order.
Yup no.4 is destroyed, a quick look down the hole revealed less than a smooth piston top,
thought I'd throw a compression test in just to ruin what was left of my day.
150-145-150-0!
So I though probably a piston destroyed but couldn't work out what would do just one, timing chain would surly knock all the valves? My first thought was to look under the car and see if i could access no.4 rod to take the head off and remove the piston and slide another one in and I'd be done.
The engine gods had not even made an appearance yet.
Onto side 2. 4 coils looked good, encouraged I pulled the plugs, each one got worse and worse, no.5 and 6 were closed, 7 the electrode was just free floating and no.8, well that's just a joke.
Okay another compression test 75-0-75-0
So this morning I pulled the intake just to see
Looks like the valve to me, no sign of the valve stem???
Obviously i have to pull the front covers off and take the heads off, but 'm planning for the worse, i got excited reading the ls 3.9 would be a viable replacement if the bores and pistons are toast, but then you need the original heads.
So what to do?
My questions are this, I need to know will the liners take a boring out to fit the 4.2 pistons, are the wrist pin and crown heights the same,
I know the ford has a slightly less length throw to make it smaller capacity.
I may be able to place some rover pistons as i have strong links to the racing side of these engines. But thats only if the larger capacity is made from bore rather than stroke. Unsure about 5-6-7-8 compression results, may have some bent valves?? again not sure of cause.
Best case scenario, valve seats worn, need replacing adn some new valves, worst case is 3 pistons gone and some destroyed bore walls, and heads destroyed.
I'm guessing at that point I could theoretically put new valves and guides on the heads, get a ls 3.8 block and put a few new pistons on the jag rods and put the rotating assembly into the 3.9 block.
The rebuilt 4.0 heads and I'm good to go? I've been looking for another block and hte ONLY one I have found is a breakers (wreckers) 200,000 on the clock and $2,500. I'm going to buy another car tomorrow but I would like to fix this one and use it in the winter.
So anyone think my 3.9 block and rebuilt heads will work, or should I stick to finding a good used 4.0 complete engine and just swap it out (may take some time).
Sorry for the long post but I'm new to these engines and i was quite encouraged at the possibility of finding an easy replacement, but that thought is slowly slipping away with each new thread i turn up.
Any help is greatly sought after and helpful. I will start looking for hte manual tonight so i can at least know where to start removing the heads. :-)
Last edited by steveinfrance; 10-04-2012 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Line breaks!!
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chucky60 (01-03-2013)
#2
10-04-2012, 06:41 AM
Veteran Member
I understand your ambitions in tearing down then rebuilding/retrofitting this 4.0 into a 4.2, however, as you may already know, the two blocks are different (the 4.0's cylinders are lined with Nikosil). Unless you wish to develop a comprehensive tutorial on how to take a destroyed 4.0 from the junk heap and make it into a 4.2, and/or love this car cause you bought it for $800, and you're obviously talented with your hands, the logical and much better fiscal choice is to procure a good working salvaged 4.0 (almost dirt cheap) and begin from there. Just drop it in and wah-lah! B.I.P of Atlanta, Georgia is presently doing a 700 chp build up of a 4.0. They'de be an excellent source for you to gain technical info. on the 4.0. Keep us posted cause as many of us are pocessed into keeping our "S"'s going...you're a mad man! And happy to have you with us.
Last edited by bfsgross; 10-04-2012 at 09:56 AM.
#3
10-04-2012, 08:41 AM
Finding a cheap engine is proving problematic so I guess waiting is the best option and finding another 4.0 to throw back in there.
In the meantime I'm curious as to the extent of the damage and what caused it,
I can only assume debris entered the engine but no evidence so far, it's not like you can over rev the engine unless your moving.
If I hadn't been able to drive 50 miles I would have jumped on the timing chain slipping a piston wacking valves and breaking one.
My only other thought is the engine got so hot the seats took a walk and one dropped.
I'll investigate further once I work out how to remove the rest of the engine components. I'm looking at a replacement car later so only have a few hours before work.
Other than Craigslist any better places to turn up a used engine (so far I have drawn blanks here in Canada)
In the meantime I'm curious as to the extent of the damage and what caused it,
I can only assume debris entered the engine but no evidence so far, it's not like you can over rev the engine unless your moving.
If I hadn't been able to drive 50 miles I would have jumped on the timing chain slipping a piston wacking valves and breaking one.
My only other thought is the engine got so hot the seats took a walk and one dropped.
I'll investigate further once I work out how to remove the rest of the engine components. I'm looking at a replacement car later so only have a few hours before work.
Other than Craigslist any better places to turn up a used engine (so far I have drawn blanks here in Canada)
Last edited by steveinfrance; 10-04-2012 at 10:07 AM. Reason: more line breaks!
#4
10-04-2012, 09:51 AM
Veteran Member
The 4.0's weak spots were Nicosil lined cylinder walls and weak cam chain tensioners, which may be the likely cause behing head/valve/interference failure. Have you checked online salvage yards? Coventry West (Atlanta, GA.) or Jaguar Heaven (CA, USA)?
Last edited by bfsgross; 10-04-2012 at 02:57 PM.
#5
10-04-2012, 11:58 AM
the timing all lines up so trying to think it through, the lower sump had a crack and a significant leak, I'm wondering if the crack happened while it was being driven and it ran out of oil, causing the overheating.
Seems like a lot of damage for a blown rad pipe!
I'm realizing that it's best to pull the motor and trans, strip it all down and wrap the car up till a decent engine can be found, then spend a few days putting it back together and I'm golden.
I just have not heard of these engine giving up like this, unless I'm reading the wrong threads ?
It's not like I can blame any shoddy work either, i don't know when the coil packs were changed but by engine crud and rust it's been a while since a socket has touched a single bolt.
Lots of rad seal in the coolant, excessive even, but then the plastic pipes were paper thin and needed replacement before any diagnostic work could have been done.
Off to look at a few 3.0's to use in the meantime ;-)
Seems like a lot of damage for a blown rad pipe!
I'm realizing that it's best to pull the motor and trans, strip it all down and wrap the car up till a decent engine can be found, then spend a few days putting it back together and I'm golden.
I just have not heard of these engine giving up like this, unless I'm reading the wrong threads ?
It's not like I can blame any shoddy work either, i don't know when the coil packs were changed but by engine crud and rust it's been a while since a socket has touched a single bolt.
Lots of rad seal in the coolant, excessive even, but then the plastic pipes were paper thin and needed replacement before any diagnostic work could have been done.
Off to look at a few 3.0's to use in the meantime ;-)
#7
10-06-2012, 10:29 AM
P or D
I'm hoping someone can enlighten me on the reason for the VIN. What differences are there in the engine from the P VIN number to the D VIN number.
I understand there are a few differences in the cars themselves but in trying to source a replacement engine I keep finding the wrong VIN number one.
I had found one from a 2002 fairly local, 12 months warranty, 105,000k compression 195 across all 8 and best of all removed complete for $1,500.
Only problem is the VIN number is different. Can I still use this engine as I see no reason why not, but don't want to find out there incompatible with my car after I have brought it.
I understand there are a few differences in the cars themselves but in trying to source a replacement engine I keep finding the wrong VIN number one.
I had found one from a 2002 fairly local, 12 months warranty, 105,000k compression 195 across all 8 and best of all removed complete for $1,500.
Only problem is the VIN number is different. Can I still use this engine as I see no reason why not, but don't want to find out there incompatible with my car after I have brought it.
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#8
10-06-2012, 11:27 AM
Perhaps you could bargain this engine? At under 600 miles, it should for all intents and purposes be like new.
2005 JAGUAR S TYPE ENGINE MOTOR 4.2L VIN V 526 MILES | eBay
I personally bought a combined fuel filter/pump/sender unit for my metro from this wrecker with a claimed 5 miles on the car. Yes, every feature of this part looked new. Paid $20, the dealer wanted $1000. That's right, a $1000.
Think about it, if the engine is fully functional (the wrecker has the tranny too) you can factor in the money you would not have to spend to rebuild a very much used engine.
NOTE: Just saw it was a supercharged engine and free shipping.
2005 JAGUAR S TYPE ENGINE MOTOR 4.2L VIN V 526 MILES | eBay
I personally bought a combined fuel filter/pump/sender unit for my metro from this wrecker with a claimed 5 miles on the car. Yes, every feature of this part looked new. Paid $20, the dealer wanted $1000. That's right, a $1000.
Think about it, if the engine is fully functional (the wrecker has the tranny too) you can factor in the money you would not have to spend to rebuild a very much used engine.
NOTE: Just saw it was a supercharged engine and free shipping.
Last edited by heima; 10-06-2012 at 11:34 AM.
#9
10-06-2012, 11:49 AM
Senior Member
Perhaps you could bargain this engine? At under 600 miles, it should for all intents and purposes be like new.
2005 JAGUAR S TYPE ENGINE MOTOR 4.2L VIN V 526 MILES | eBay
I personally bought a combined fuel filter/pump/sender unit for my metro from this wrecker with a claimed 5 miles on the car. Yes, every feature of this part looked new. Paid $20, the dealer wanted $1000. That's right, a $1000.
Think about it, if the engine is fully functional (the wrecker has the tranny too) you can factor in the money you would not have to spend to rebuild a very much used engine.
NOTE: Just saw it was a supercharged engine and free shipping.
2005 JAGUAR S TYPE ENGINE MOTOR 4.2L VIN V 526 MILES | eBay
I personally bought a combined fuel filter/pump/sender unit for my metro from this wrecker with a claimed 5 miles on the car. Yes, every feature of this part looked new. Paid $20, the dealer wanted $1000. That's right, a $1000.
Think about it, if the engine is fully functional (the wrecker has the tranny too) you can factor in the money you would not have to spend to rebuild a very much used engine.
NOTE: Just saw it was a supercharged engine and free shipping.
The tranny is different, all the modules and computers are different even the mounts might be different.
It could work with unlimited time and money and buying every component from the donor car, but still a long shot.
He has a 13 year old car that is not worth putting the money needed into this project.
A good used motor for about $800,00 is about it.
#11
10-07-2012, 09:26 PM
#13
10-21-2012, 06:52 PM
Well after a struggle with the front pulley I finally tore into the motor, what seemed like a glimmer of hope died pretty quickly.
First off I pulled the engine using the guide found here, https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ion-how-64612/
many thanks to TDC for documenting everything
but I found plenty of room just removing the anti-roll bar.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0269.jpg
So off with it's head, not surprisingly this is what i found!
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0280.jpg
other 3 looked good as did the bores
http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0282.jpg
Head took a hit but I'm now thinking a new piston, re-weld up the head, helicoil the plug, a couple of valves and we may yet save this one.
Onto Side 2
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0287.jpg
Looks like someone fired buck shot at the pistons.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0295.jpg
Then unloaded the other barrel at the head, all pistons the same and yet still no damage to the bores.
The rest of the engine is pretty straight forward, the sump is the same as I made for my race car so that was obvious,
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0298.jpg
the crank is in perfect shape, no wear ont he journals, the rods also show no sign's of having any issues,
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0299.jpg
the pistons and heads took the brunt, everything else about the engine showed it in surprisingly good shape, not sure what made the plugs go, i have to suspect a timing chain slip as it's all the left bank, but could have been jared when the valve let go.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0301.jpg
The new engine is sitting next to the transmission waiting for me to summon the energy to mate them and get them ready to put back in.
In the mean time I'm looking at those Cats and thinking, there's a few more HP right there, I live in an area that has no emission testing, and it would make the Kat growl a little more without any effort. I guess I will need someone to flash the ECU to remove the code that will come up once there gone but not rocket science.
Will post more pictures once the engine is going back in and I find some rims for it. unfortunately the old engine is not salvageable so will probably be humiliatingly recycled into a pontic vibe engine. (I can say that as I brought one for my daily driver while the jaguar is undergoing repairs and it's a pitiful car!)
First off I pulled the engine using the guide found here, https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ion-how-64612/
many thanks to TDC for documenting everything
but I found plenty of room just removing the anti-roll bar.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0269.jpg
So off with it's head, not surprisingly this is what i found!
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0280.jpg
other 3 looked good as did the bores
http://s52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0282.jpg
Head took a hit but I'm now thinking a new piston, re-weld up the head, helicoil the plug, a couple of valves and we may yet save this one.
Onto Side 2
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0287.jpg
Looks like someone fired buck shot at the pistons.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0295.jpg
Then unloaded the other barrel at the head, all pistons the same and yet still no damage to the bores.
The rest of the engine is pretty straight forward, the sump is the same as I made for my race car so that was obvious,
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0298.jpg
the crank is in perfect shape, no wear ont he journals, the rods also show no sign's of having any issues,
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0299.jpg
the pistons and heads took the brunt, everything else about the engine showed it in surprisingly good shape, not sure what made the plugs go, i have to suspect a timing chain slip as it's all the left bank, but could have been jared when the valve let go.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g2...2/IMG_0301.jpg
The new engine is sitting next to the transmission waiting for me to summon the energy to mate them and get them ready to put back in.
In the mean time I'm looking at those Cats and thinking, there's a few more HP right there, I live in an area that has no emission testing, and it would make the Kat growl a little more without any effort. I guess I will need someone to flash the ECU to remove the code that will come up once there gone but not rocket science.
Will post more pictures once the engine is going back in and I find some rims for it. unfortunately the old engine is not salvageable so will probably be humiliatingly recycled into a pontic vibe engine. (I can say that as I brought one for my daily driver while the jaguar is undergoing repairs and it's a pitiful car!)
#14
10-21-2012, 08:41 PM
Veteran Member
#15
10-22-2012, 06:51 AM
Haha, were very quiet about the fact they forgot about us. There is benifit to being this far away from civilization, and one of those reasons is no drive clean. Tractors out number cars 3-1 so simply we don't have drive clean in out county.
What would the weak link be?, I fear it may be a little late because I plan on throwing it back together today :-( but it's not exactly hard to get at.
What would the weak link be?, I fear it may be a little late because I plan on throwing it back together today :-( but it's not exactly hard to get at.
#16
10-22-2012, 01:18 PM
Senior Member
Just a wee point. If the Gearbox is an automatic 5 speed unit, it is not a ZF but the Ford 5R55N Unit. The automatic 6 speed ZF(6HP26 transmission) came in for the 2003 Model Year facelift. A 5 speed Getrag unit was used in the Manual option for the V6 2.5 and 3.0 Ltr cars. The V8s were only available with automatic transmission.
Regards,
Inver.
Last edited by InverStype; 10-22-2012 at 02:12 PM.
#17
01-02-2013, 12:02 AM
#18
01-02-2013, 12:12 AM
Top remove the engine I naturally drained all the fluids as well as those in the tranny, now it seems they are sealed for life, I tried to download the manual but my old computer PPC mac along with dial up wont handle such a large file.
So I'm going by experience alone, I am thinking it possible to fill the trans up because at some point some one would have lost their fluid, a broken cooler hose or something.
So the quest for oil and refilling starts tomorrow, Canadian tire had a sale on with some nasty quakerstate oil so I'm going to use that and a new filter to flush the engine with then replace with some proper protection.
Apart from the starter wires, the trans cooler hose I'm done (cant get to left side of vehicle due to garage filling up for winter) but it will have to live outside in the snow again once it's running.
Next major job it to pull the head unit apart, find the CD in wires before they go to the preamp and patch a headphone jack onto it so I can play my ipod directly through the radio. I'll take some pictures on my journey but I do this with all my cars so I'm not anticipating any trouble, then I want to graft my tomtom or iphone holder into the useless phone holder that's already there, that way I can have gps without retrofitting the Jaguar one. One project at a time though, transmission next.
So I'm going by experience alone, I am thinking it possible to fill the trans up because at some point some one would have lost their fluid, a broken cooler hose or something.
So the quest for oil and refilling starts tomorrow, Canadian tire had a sale on with some nasty quakerstate oil so I'm going to use that and a new filter to flush the engine with then replace with some proper protection.
Apart from the starter wires, the trans cooler hose I'm done (cant get to left side of vehicle due to garage filling up for winter) but it will have to live outside in the snow again once it's running.
Next major job it to pull the head unit apart, find the CD in wires before they go to the preamp and patch a headphone jack onto it so I can play my ipod directly through the radio. I'll take some pictures on my journey but I do this with all my cars so I'm not anticipating any trouble, then I want to graft my tomtom or iphone holder into the useless phone holder that's already there, that way I can have gps without retrofitting the Jaguar one. One project at a time though, transmission next.
#19
01-02-2013, 02:08 AM
Veteran Member
#20
01-02-2013, 03:16 AM
I just looked, its as easy as it comes, thankfully merkon v is plentiful and cheap, the fill proceedure is easy and quick, and actually makes a lot of sense. Much better then having to pour in until dribbles out the same hole, I remember my poor vauxhall Chevette HS and having to constantly replace the trans, that was a pain. This in comparison is easy on the ford box.
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