2001 s-type 4.0 dies after idling 10 minutes
#41
11-26-2015, 08:00 PM
Veteran Member
#42
11-27-2015, 03:17 AM
i bought it non running, the motor was purchased from an online engine remanufacturer for over $4000 it was backfiring real bad like it was out of time. what i found was the flexplate was installed wrong and the ckp was reading wrong because of that. it never ran until i got it and fixed all the things the previous person did or didnt do. I did pull it apart and check the timing and everything is new and does have the upgraded tensioners.
#43
11-27-2015, 12:10 PM
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#45
11-28-2015, 02:49 PM
Veteran Member
Some more thoughts:
What caused the failure of the old engine? It's a longshot, but I'm wondering if there could have been some external cause still at play.
I'm not 100% sure about Jaguar's version of OBD II logic, but I think some fault codes may be inhibited until completion of a drive cycle. In other words, the PCM knows about the faults but won't tell you yet. Maybe after 10 minutes the PCM is trying to run a test anyway, such as with the evap system. This could cause a change in metered airflow, and under normal conditions, minor fueling adjustments would be made. But if still in learning mode, without a drive cycle at least in progress, the PCM may not know how to react to this unusual situation, but without displaying a fault code.
FWIW.
What caused the failure of the old engine? It's a longshot, but I'm wondering if there could have been some external cause still at play.
I'm not 100% sure about Jaguar's version of OBD II logic, but I think some fault codes may be inhibited until completion of a drive cycle. In other words, the PCM knows about the faults but won't tell you yet. Maybe after 10 minutes the PCM is trying to run a test anyway, such as with the evap system. This could cause a change in metered airflow, and under normal conditions, minor fueling adjustments would be made. But if still in learning mode, without a drive cycle at least in progress, the PCM may not know how to react to this unusual situation, but without displaying a fault code.
FWIW.
#46
11-29-2015, 07:52 AM
Veteran Member
Not really but there are "Pending" codes. Almost everything has a threshold that has to be exceeded before a code will be set.
Many things are statistical in nature so it requires some time before borderline problems become real problems or hard codes.
I use the Scan XL software and it will show Pending codes if there are any.
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Many things are statistical in nature so it requires some time before borderline problems become real problems or hard codes.
I use the Scan XL software and it will show Pending codes if there are any.
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.
.
#47
11-29-2015, 10:36 AM
Veteran Member
As with other OBD II cars, until the OBD monitors have run OK the system cannot flag some codes. (You may or may not get some pending codes before that.)
To run so long and only then fail it is likely either heat soak or some actuator is finally triggered but does the wrong thing. Probably easiest to find if you know the car intimately and have the OE diag tool.
To run so long and only then fail it is likely either heat soak or some actuator is finally triggered but does the wrong thing. Probably easiest to find if you know the car intimately and have the OE diag tool.
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abonano (11-29-2015)
#48
11-29-2015, 12:08 PM
As with other OBD II cars, until the OBD monitors have run OK the system cannot flag some codes. (You may or may not get some pending codes before that.)
To run so long and only then fail it is likely either heat soak or some actuator is finally triggered but does the wrong thing. Probably easiest to find if you know the car intimately and have the OE diag tool.
To run so long and only then fail it is likely either heat soak or some actuator is finally triggered but does the wrong thing. Probably easiest to find if you know the car intimately and have the OE diag tool.
Just my $0.02 here considering it seems like your losing fuel pressure (whether computer controlled or not) after a specific period of time.
#49
11-29-2015, 12:17 PM
Veteran Member
See post #27 on the fuel pressure.
To add to JagV8 - I agree on having a dealer level diagnostic tool available to look at live data. Additionally, Has the fuel pump been changed? Fuel filter? These fuel pumps are finicky. Possibly, it's crapping out after a period of time.
Just my $0.02 here considering it seems like your losing fuel pressure (whether computer controlled or not) after a specific period of time.
Just my $0.02 here considering it seems like your losing fuel pressure (whether computer controlled or not) after a specific period of time.
#50
11-29-2015, 03:32 PM
Veteran Member
Where's kaotikd, the original poster? Has he given up on us as we have philosophical discussions about how many angels can dance on the head of an OBD II connector? We haven't heard back lately with any updates.
I can't remember if this has been answered yet, but does this happen only when idling for long periods? Has the car been through a proper OBD II drive cycle yet? Since some codes are inhibited until then, a complete drive cycle might finally force the PCM to spill the beans. I agree a dealer level scanner may be needed, or it could be as simple as a tired fuel pump, etc. In the meantime, though, I'd really like to know if there are any fault codes showing after completion of a proper drive cycle or two.
#51
11-29-2015, 03:52 PM
Veteran Member
#52
11-29-2015, 04:52 PM
I recently purchased a 01 s-type 4.0 with a long list of issues some fixed some new. Originally i purchased it with the impression that it was a running and driving auto before engine blew (that remains to be seen). The old owner bought a new engine and paid a "backyard mechanic" to install and get running but was unable to do either correctly.
That being said ive recently re-timed it as well as installed the flexplate in the correct position had the heads checked and all is good. It starts and runs fine for about 10 maybe 15 minutes once it gets to operating temp it starts to stumble then just quits. After it cuts off it will not restart until it sets for a bit then it starts and stalls again. No DTC codes and no warning at all. All plugs coils are new the CKP sensor was replaced before i got it but not sure that is the case. It has 32 lbs fuel pressure at idle and stays pressurized even after it cuts off actually goes up to 60lbs.
Battery new and fully charged. Im not quite sure what direction to go in first without any code. Me being new to the jaguar world ive gotten lots of good advice and am grateful, any advice would be appreciated.
That being said ive recently re-timed it as well as installed the flexplate in the correct position had the heads checked and all is good. It starts and runs fine for about 10 maybe 15 minutes once it gets to operating temp it starts to stumble then just quits. After it cuts off it will not restart until it sets for a bit then it starts and stalls again. No DTC codes and no warning at all. All plugs coils are new the CKP sensor was replaced before i got it but not sure that is the case. It has 32 lbs fuel pressure at idle and stays pressurized even after it cuts off actually goes up to 60lbs.
Battery new and fully charged. Im not quite sure what direction to go in first without any code. Me being new to the jaguar world ive gotten lots of good advice and am grateful, any advice would be appreciated.
Secondly, this is a long post but maybe I missed it but was the fuel filter changed. I would suggest testing operating voltage at the fuel pump while running to see if you lose voltage when the engine cuts out. (Should be at least10.5V+ before starting and over 12V when running) could be a relay that craps out/stuck and overheats after a short period cutting voltage to the fuel pump.
Start with basics - fuel, spark & air. Two of the three are electrically related. Again, 32 psi is low. Changing the fuel filter (that may be installed backwards or partially clogged/blocked) may be your culprit.
Regarding the fuel pressure holding at 60psi when the engine cuts off is a moot point. Its rail pressure. It will hold for a bit even if the pump cuts out, not simply go down to 0 psi (it would over time though)
Or, the replacement engine has some sort of irreversible damage from the crappy install and flex plate/timing issues. Was the timing properly set with tools?
Last edited by abonano; 11-29-2015 at 05:01 PM.
#53
12-03-2015, 03:28 AM
Update.
Sorry been busy haven't had time to get on. Yes it is at idle only but i have driven it and it still will die. There are absolutely no codes. The fuel pressure is 40 psi running and new fuel filter. Have good voltage at fuel pump before during and after it dies. Timing was reset with all the tools and correctly.
May have found the issue but its still to be determined. With a little help from a member we have come to the conclusion that the car thinks it is overheating thus shutting down. I have the scanner on with live data and the temp is reading well over 210 at idle with fans running and not dropping a bit. With a little more investigation when it dies the scanner temp is 217 and the actual coolant temp is 160 to 170.
Before anyone asks, yes it is bled and the air is out as well as new water pump, thermostat and dccv valve,the radiator and engine have been flushed for obstructions as well. The next step which im waiting for the parts is im replacing both temp sensors with the oem ones. Will update after.
Sorry been busy haven't had time to get on. Yes it is at idle only but i have driven it and it still will die. There are absolutely no codes. The fuel pressure is 40 psi running and new fuel filter. Have good voltage at fuel pump before during and after it dies. Timing was reset with all the tools and correctly.
May have found the issue but its still to be determined. With a little help from a member we have come to the conclusion that the car thinks it is overheating thus shutting down. I have the scanner on with live data and the temp is reading well over 210 at idle with fans running and not dropping a bit. With a little more investigation when it dies the scanner temp is 217 and the actual coolant temp is 160 to 170.
Before anyone asks, yes it is bled and the air is out as well as new water pump, thermostat and dccv valve,the radiator and engine have been flushed for obstructions as well. The next step which im waiting for the parts is im replacing both temp sensors with the oem ones. Will update after.
#54
12-03-2015, 09:01 AM
Veteran Member
the car thinks it is overheating thus shutting down. I have the scanner on with live data and the temp is reading well over 210 at idle with fans running and not dropping a bit. With a little more investigation when it dies the scanner temp is 217 and the actual coolant temp is 160 to 170.
210 is normal, so I wouldn't consider that an overheat situation. My experiences here:
https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s-type-s-type-r-supercharged-v8-x200-15/temp-gauge-computation-152099/
Also, where and how were you getting the 160 reading? If using an infrared thermometer, the readings can be all over the place depending on surface material and reflectivity. I use my thermometer more for comparative readings (warmer here, cooler there, etc.) versus absolute values (xx degrees).
#55
12-03-2015, 04:45 PM
Update,
Its fixed!! After some good advice from gus i replaced both the temp sensors with oem and got a good bleed in the cooling system it stays running and holds 214 temp at idle.
Its just crazy that no codes or anything but i guess thats the nature of the beast. I would like to thank everybody for their advice and input.
I have learned a lot about jaguar s-type's during this whole experience. Im so thankful for forums like this and the great members.
Thanks again
Its fixed!! After some good advice from gus i replaced both the temp sensors with oem and got a good bleed in the cooling system it stays running and holds 214 temp at idle.
Its just crazy that no codes or anything but i guess thats the nature of the beast. I would like to thank everybody for their advice and input.
I have learned a lot about jaguar s-type's during this whole experience. Im so thankful for forums like this and the great members.
Thanks again
#56
12-03-2015, 04:52 PM
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#57
12-03-2015, 05:18 PM
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#58
12-03-2015, 11:28 PM
Veteran Member
Hey! What about guys like me? I'm telling ya, I don't get no respect... (Tugging at collar)
All seriousness aside, I'm glad to hear you got it fixed. Does anybody have any factory documentation on this protective shutdown feature? I'd really like to learn more. I only had a few minutes to look this evening but came up empty handed.
All seriousness aside, I'm glad to hear you got it fixed. Does anybody have any factory documentation on this protective shutdown feature? I'd really like to learn more. I only had a few minutes to look this evening but came up empty handed.
#59
12-04-2015, 05:00 PM
#60
12-04-2015, 08:39 PM
Veteran Member
Interesting. Does it cause any messages to let you know what is happening?