Like George says, we've heard of intakes sucking water from riding through deep puddles, etc. then hydrolocking, but...? Driving in water, etc. doesn't make sense for an "S"...maybe an SUV. Perhaps a headgasket cut loose allowing water from water jacket to flood some cylinders?

 

I don't buy it. The S_Type's intake sits too high. He would have have to have driven through over a foot and a half of water, PLUS it would have died at the moment of ingesting the water, trust me, it would NOT have taken him safely home without him recalling anything. It would have been "i drove into standing water and my car died", not I went to bed and came out the next morning and my car wouldn't turn over.

If the car did blow a head gasket spontaneously over night, runs fine turn it off, come back out, no crank nothing, it wouldn't run right now... If he was getting coolant into the cylinders (to the point where it froze and wouldn't start or turn over), he'd be pouring white smoke out of the exhaust, and losing coolant at an alarming rate.

Something just isn't sitting right with me here..

Take care,

George

 

Maybe the TB (throttle body) not being heated? (The infamous cooling circuit.)
Or water sucked in.... driving through horrific rain? Never heard of it like this, though.
Or excessive water in the oil? I'm grasping at straws.
Really bad gas, with water in the tank?

Looks almost like a made-up excuse........

 

The bottom line is this, the car would not have driven home to it's destination safely, with enough water STILL present in the cylinders to freeze and render the motor effectively seized when he woke up the next day.

Even if the TB is was frozen shut (don't forget it's not heated till the car starts), it wouldn't explain this "ice covered spark plug myth".

Take care,

George

 

Yeah. I really was grasping at straws.

So, not a broken rod. The 1st excuse.
Not water as described. The 2nd excuse.

Good time to change techs.

 

You ain't the only one, this just doesn't make sense. George I agree with everything you said here, if somehow it got into water that deep - he'd know it and it wouldn't go any further. Catastrophic head gasket failure would have so many tell-tale indicators the kid at your local Jiffy Lube could figure it out.

And even if somehow it did get hydrolocked, that's not always terminal anyway. I've been there in 4 feet of water in my Jeeps several times. All ya gotta do is drain the oil and you'd know for sure if that was the issue.

Something else is at play here and I can't think of what that would be.

 

Hey wait...what if he filled up at a station with too much water in its fuel?

 

Then wouldn't there be many more cars who used that particular tank be having the same problems? That would probably make the evening news.

 

Would it have ran fine going home with water in the tank and then have enough water to go through the injector to actually cause the cylinder to seem seized cause its frozen. Sounds like it would need alot of water to make the block seize. Also if he is in Michigan he would of hopefully have the proper coolant/water mixture and it would seem very hard for a coolant water mix to freeze if it was the head gasket. I used to have a boat when I lived in Michigan and stored it outside with coolant water mix in the water lines and never had a problem with it freezing sitting out in the elements.

 

Well, first. It wouldn't run. At least not smoothly. Water doesn't contain combustible energy and dilutes fuel octane.

Secondly, even if he got crappy gas with water in it, it wouldn't sit in the cylinder and accumulate. The water would vaporize in the cylinder and exit as steam. It's not like water in the gas would just accumulate in the cylinders. If the engine ran, even poorly, it would evaporate the water, do you have any idea the internal cylinder temps - exhaust gas temps are an indication of this.

There's no real way this car hydrolocked, OR had enough water in the cylinders to run fine, get parked, and be frozen solid the next morning.

I hydrolocked a car as an idiotic teenager. Drove it straight into a flooded street thinking I could make it. It died within SECONDS. My father got it towed back to the shop, pulled the plugs, and drained the oil. Turned the engine over by hand, and water came out of the spark plug holes etc, put new plugs in it, and new oil filter. Fired it up and it ran like crap for a few seconds then smoothed out.

The ONLY way this makes sense at ALL is if somehow he cracked the block and the water jacket was leaking into the cylinder. BUT still, this is assuming there wasn't enough coolant to prevent freezing, and it wouldn't explain it running fine now.

I really think the mechanic is taking this guy for a ride, and there was some other simple fix here that he's concealing. New plugs and a 2-3k bill for diagnostic testing?? Wouldn't the first thing you do with a supposedly siezed motor is pull the plugs to see condition (to see if it leaned out or something??).

Take care,

George

 

Wouldn't necessarily make the evening news, maybe not even affect that many customers. However, he would have to live very close to the fueling station and it wouldn't run fine now, unless the tank and entire fuel-sys was purged and cleaned.

A few years ago when fuel was tending North of $4/gal I spent $108 at Chevron topping off the (dsl) Excursion with pond-water. Made it about 2 mi. toward home, running great, then a flicker of "water-in-fuel" caution light and the 7.3L mill went hot, dark, and silent. Station owner made initial denials in broken English, but follow-up with Chevron corp. a day later put me in touch with his insurance company, which reimbursed the $1200+ dealer charge for complete fuel system cleaning and replacement of fuel-pump. I was still out the $108 purchase, though. I later received a cordial email from Mr. "not from around here, nor Lwr Alabam', either" inviting me back to serve any and all of my fuel needs......

I think when they get a slug of water it goes through the pump all at once and probably only hits a few customers.

However, ECM doesn't know what liquid's in the lines, only pressure and thus how long it will pulse the injector, so I don't see it squirting enough water in to hydrolock it. Are we thinking it locked things up by freezing overnight? I agree with prev. post if head gasket, whatever made intrusion shouldn't have frozen and wouldn't run good now....or, if not a proper glycol/water mix....should mabye be a cracked block or displaced casting plug, at least by now.

Sorry to ramble on....but based on a (bad) personal experience, I could see getting him home and shutdown from a watery fuel station, if he lives very close...and the station's problem not becoming general public knowledge..but I can't see it running good after thaw-out. Petrol engine may not need fuel-pump R&R after that, but still wouldn't run good on water.

 

Water isn't going to stay in the cylinder if the engine ran, MUCH less enough to freeze a cylinder and prevent the movement of the engine. The problem is as the water circulates through the fuel system, it makes the fuel non combustible. As you found out...

Diesel is a bit more vulnerable to water in the fuel, because it relies simply on compression to facilitate combustion, rather than an ignition source.

If he got contaminated gas, it would turn over but not fire...

Water in gas from a gas station is usually a result of a failed underground tank, and a high groundwater table due to recent rain etc. (Either at the station or some intermediary post refinement holding tank).

Take care,

George

 

I wouldn't pay the bill. Lawyers at dawn, first.

 

It only take a small bit of moisture from fuel left in the cylinder to mix with the empty cylinders atmosphere which eventually cools when engine is off, then precipitates adding to residual moisture from the fuel= Total moisture content in a few cylinders freeze over night...wa la! LOCK UP.

 

BFG

An STR is 4.2l So each cylinder is .525 l in displacement. That's exactly a poland spring or other water bottle. I'm not going to do the math on how much liquid volume it is before it freezes, but your theory of condensation isn't going to do it...

Take care,

George

 

Is that a statement of fact or a suggestion? My reaction is: no way! But I'm willing to be convinced if you can point to some evidence / reputable source.

 

I'm in the skeptic camp. What I've heard doesn't make sense to me. Just how much (little) moisture in the cylinders would it take to cause this fault? I understand that the OP isn't mechanically inclined, so I'm sure we're all concerned with him being taken.

 

FIrst of all, I don't believe we have enough information to diagnose noodlearm's problem. However, since it is always open-season for speculation, let the fun begin! I reread the entire thread looking for statements of fact and instead learned a host of information about forced-air induction and mothers! Even so, I think we have this:
1) STR was driven early in the day (we don't know for how long) then parked and shutdown with everything normal.
2) Later that day, in 5 deg F ambient, a start was attempted with a no-crank result. (we don't know how long it cold-soaked nor if it was 5 deg all day or cooling down to that or warming up to it during the day)
3) Battery replacement had no effect (no information on ambient temps during this phase)
4) Towed to a shop who confirmed crankshaft locked in place and declared "broken connecting rod."(no information on ambient temps during this phase, with the exception of difficulty getting it to a second shop because of snow...so we know it was "cold')
5) Delivered to another shop which reported "ice on spark plugs" and wants $2k-$3k for "diagnostics" and plug-change. (still no information on ambient temps during this phase, though we can assume <32 deg F given "ice on plugs" declaration - though my brain is straining a bit at this....these guys pull the plugs outside? or push it in and start immediately? - I know it would take a bit of time to thaw if plugs were iced....still...)

IF you accept "ice on plugs" as a fact, you don't necessarily have to accept water in the cylinders as the reason it won't crank, but you do have to allow the mechanism as to how that could eventuate and assess how such possibilities may be related to the problem. I THINK we'd all agree enough moisture to show as ice on the plugs is abnormal, though we may not all agree it is a fact (his shop may be blowing sunshine up his briefs to melt the ice)

George, I can go part-way with you here but not whole-hog. Yes, there should be enough residual heat in the pistons/cyl walls of a freshly-shutdown engine to boil any water that finds itself in there. Yes, it is probably going to obey the laws of hot gasses and expand which will take some, not all, out any opening (an open intake or exh. valve) However, not only will some steam be left in the cyl, but let's not forget there are at least a few cyls that do not have any open valves at the point the crank comes to rest upon shutdown. (someone looking at drawings and/or possessing intimate knowledge of the mill in question could no-doubt tell us the max and min # cyl's that could be so-configured at any point around the crank's rotation, but that is the beauty of speculation, one only need prove plausibility and leave the grungy details for when more facts are known!) So whatever water-charge is introduced, we have at least one cyl, probably more retaining the full charge.

Several of us spoke earlier of hydrolock, then discounted it, properly, I think. For hydrolock, we have at least one cyl with valves closed and in its compression stroke but reaching a point where the entire volume is filled with an incompressible fluid (like water) thus preventing further rotation of the engine. This scenario almost always begins and ends in something like waist-deep (or deeper) water as George related, not at home in your drive after a normal shutdown.

George, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you started down a similar path when you were talking individual cyl volume and then invoked the same rules regarding speculation to short-circuit the math/physics req'd to determine what quantity water would be req'd to fill that volume as ice, once it expands? Then rejected same...and rightly so, I think.

Given the sparse nature of our facts, I tried to envision a scenario that would account for everything we think we know so far...try this:

Some moisture was introduced to his cylinders upon shutdown, which was vaporized by the latent heat in the cylinders and pistons. This moisture subsequently condensed on the cylinder walls, piston tops, cyl-piston interface and rings, and valve surfaces and valve-seats. With further exsposure to the low temperatures, the car cooled further, freezing this moisture in-place. Since the car really didn't want to crank at 5 deg F in the first place (oil viscosity, etc,) and since noodlearm distrusted his battery enough to replace it, it didn't require a solid ball of ice between one piston and the head to lock it, rather the glaze on all cyl's was sufficient.

So where did the water come from?
1) Noodlearm has no airfilter or has a breach in the hose between his filter and engine and a "grunch" of snow fell from somewhere on the car and was sucked into the intake at the EXACT moment of shutdown.
2) Noodlearm had a small slug of water in his fuel tank that made its way to the pump inlet, up through the system, and was injected into (some or all of) the cylinders at the EXACT moment of shutdown (possibly, the engine was "stumbling" simultaneously whilst losing spark due to shutdown)

Ok...weak, I'll grant you....but I'm just trying to find a scenario that fits our facts until more facts come available. 1) is easily eliminated with confirmation that the filtered air path is intact. 2) would require fueling that morning when it was operated, i would think. Whenever water was introduced into the fuel, it would not take terribly long for it to find its way to the pump inlet which is normally low in the tank to minimize unusable fuel. Water, being of greater density...seeks the low bits. Once the pump starts sucking water, you will have some very bad running, if running at all, until you've exhausted the water supply.

One thing is quite clear in all this: I don't have nearly enough to do today!!!

Personally, if my car wouldn't crank at all at 5F, especially on a new batt. my first step would be to heat it up and try again. On the other hand, if I had been convinced it were due to a broken-rod/major internal engine damage, and a shop returned it with new plugs, working great, and a $2-$3K bill, eh...maybe fair. (Noodlearm has his Jag back from the dead for <$3k and lots of times...that may be a bargain!) on the other hand, given what we are told of replaced parts...seems he could have resurrected it with a bit of piped-in sunshine, so the bill is a bit criminal. Hope he weighs-in with more information before signing the house over the repair shop.....

 

I realize we have a staggered set of fact here, but here is my position, that we have enough facts to disprove both diagnoses so far.

First, the rod was NOT broken, even if there was a broken connecting rod, it would NOT cause the engine to sieze, sure it would sound like hell due to the piston free in the cylinder, but there is no "broken rod sensor" that would prevent the engine from attempting to mechanically crank. We already confirmed that part.

As far as the second shop, who claims to have pulled the plugs, after $2-$3k worth of diagnostics, and found them iced over, I call BS.

FIRST this would require the water to enter the combustion chamber somehow, either though the fuel or intake systems. We can speculate all day on that can or cannot happen but that's irrelevant right now.

To get ENOUGH water into more than one cylinder where the plugs (which are in the head and recessed upwards from the combustion chamber) would be removed and show accumulated ice, there would have to be enough water left over in those cylinders to freeze and expand to where it would touch the plugs electrodes. Last time I check water doesn't defy gravity. If there wasn't enough to get the plugs wet and keep them wet even after icing, from the top of the piston to the plug electrode would be a solid block of ice. This would indeed cause the mechanical interference needed to make the engine not turn over by hand, but once the engine warmed up and the water melted, there wouldn't just be ice on the plugs but a substantial amount of water in the cylinders as well, that would have to be expelled by turning the engine over by hand, or using the starter with the plugs out.

Now, using your theory that a sufficient LAYER of ice (Rather than a solid block of it caused the mechanical interference), wouldn't that imply an almost "flash" freezing of the moisture in the combustion chamber... You have a running engine with water vapor in the cylinders. The engine block temperatures at the point of shutdown are above boiling, as the engine cools down, the vapor condenses back to water, and then to ice. I can't envision a scenario like that developing, where you have a slowly cooling metal hollow metal chamber with water vapor in it, yet the interior surfaces get evenly coated with ice, leaving the center of the chamber hollow. Can you??

As to your potential causes for water entering the system, I think that they are both discredited by the simple fact that the car runs properly after a simple spark plug change.

If he aimed his snowthrower at the intake which didn't have a filter while he shut the car down, after it was all done, he would have TONS of unmetered air. The car wouldn't suddenly run fine, plus all sorts of stored OBDII codes, MAF's would short with that much water going through them.

If it were to be introduced by water contaminated fuel, which was acquired shortly before shutdown, the car would run terribly now, unless like you said, the fuel system was purged.

None of these scenarios would lead to an A-ok car after a plug change.

I also don't think a plug would come out if there is enough "ICE" on it to be visible when it was removed. You would certainly FEEL the ice breaking as you undid the plug, and it would require a significant amount of torque.

I agree we can't tell what REALLY happened here... BUT I'm thinking something electrical. What would cause the starter to not even TRY to engage, especially with a fresh battery??

Take care,

George

 

"What the heck did you expect us to do you morons" (The "Stork" from "Animal House", 1978). LOL! Dudes...Like...we should all take a chill pill here man. jagv8, George, "ahol"...you dudes are the friggin "Engineers/Chief Science Officers from Hell! Yas are amazing! All kidding aside, ya's be the ones I'd do a Mars mission with. I admit to believing my explanation for ice on the plugs would possibly turn the tide for a proper diagnosis but despite "its" odds of surviving the scrutiny of this forums "best" of the scientific community...Ya all let "it" down...gracefully and do sincerely appreciate this. In summation but without an air of defiance nor predjudice, I continue to stand behind the variable of moisture from the route of contamination of fuel and/or mechanical failure leading to intrusion as a likely cause of the OP's distressed engine. I truelly love you guys. Peace.