Broken Rod
#101
02-19-2011, 06:32 PM
Veteran Member
I also don't think a plug would come out if there is enough "ICE" on it to be visible when it was removed. You would certainly FEEL the ice breaking as you undid the plug, and it would require a significant amount of torque.
I agree we can't tell what REALLY happened here... BUT I'm thinking something electrical. What would cause the starter to not even TRY to engage, especially with a fresh battery??
I agree we can't tell what REALLY happened here... BUT I'm thinking something electrical. What would cause the starter to not even TRY to engage, especially with a fresh battery??
Now, using your theory that a sufficient LAYER of ice (Rather than a solid block of it caused the mechanical interference), wouldn't that imply an almost "flash" freezing of the moisture in the combustion chamber... You have a running engine with water vapor in the cylinders. The engine block temperatures at the point of shutdown are above boiling, as the engine cools down, the vapor condenses back to water, and then to ice. I can't envision a scenario like that developing, where you have a slowly cooling metal hollow metal chamber with water vapor in it, yet the interior surfaces get evenly coated with ice, leaving the center of the chamber hollow. Can you??
Anyhow...it is fun to speculate in a dearth of actual data and match wits with sharp guys....if you are correct and I suspect you are, we can expect noodlearm to experience this episode again at some point, because we haven't seen any evidence that either shop found/corrected an electrical issue, either.
#102
02-19-2011, 06:46 PM
Veteran Member
ahol, wonderful dissertation and rebuttal to George. I'm always impressed reading/listening to engineers and scientists debate with such cavalear. I hope I sound as do you two when debating a health issue with another doctor. Water that lands on then freezes in/on the starter, etc. may cause lockup and/or intrude and freeze its components. I don't know...for some reason I'm still hedging on some sort of moisture intrusion in this puzzle. Be easy with me guys...I'm more often wrong when it comes to complex vehicles.
#103
02-19-2011, 08:23 PM
Veteran Member
FIrst of all, I don't believe we have enough information to diagnose noodlearm's problem. However, since it is always open-season for speculation, let the fun begin! I reread the entire thread looking for statements of fact and instead learned a host of information about forced-air induction and mothers! Even so, I think we have this:
1) STR was driven early in the day (we don't know for how long) then parked and shutdown with everything normal.
2) Later that day, in 5 deg F ambient, a start was attempted with a no-crank result. (we don't know how long it cold-soaked nor if it was 5 deg all day or cooling down to that or warming up to it during the day)
3) Battery replacement had no effect (no information on ambient temps during this phase)
4) Towed to a shop who confirmed crankshaft locked in place and declared "broken connecting rod."(no information on ambient temps during this phase, with the exception of difficulty getting it to a second shop because of snow...so we know it was "cold')
5) Delivered to another shop which reported "ice on spark plugs" and wants $2k-$3k for "diagnostics" and plug-change. (still no information on ambient temps during this phase, though we can assume <32 deg F given "ice on plugs" declaration - though my brain is straining a bit at this....these guys pull the plugs outside? or push it in and start immediately? - I know it would take a bit of time to thaw if plugs were iced....still...)
IF you accept "ice on plugs" as a fact, you don't necessarily have to accept water in the cylinders as the reason it won't crank, but you do have to allow the mechanism as to how that could eventuate and assess how such possibilities may be related to the problem. I THINK we'd all agree enough moisture to show as ice on the plugs is abnormal, though we may not all agree it is a fact (his shop may be blowing sunshine up his briefs to melt the ice)
George, I can go part-way with you here but not whole-hog. Yes, there should be enough residual heat in the pistons/cyl walls of a freshly-shutdown engine to boil any water that finds itself in there. Yes, it is probably going to obey the laws of hot gasses and expand which will take some, not all, out any opening (an open intake or exh. valve) However, not only will some steam be left in the cyl, but let's not forget there are at least a few cyls that do not have any open valves at the point the crank comes to rest upon shutdown. (someone looking at drawings and/or possessing intimate knowledge of the mill in question could no-doubt tell us the max and min # cyl's that could be so-configured at any point around the crank's rotation, but that is the beauty of speculation, one only need prove plausibility and leave the grungy details for when more facts are known!) So whatever water-charge is introduced, we have at least one cyl, probably more retaining the full charge.
Several of us spoke earlier of hydrolock, then discounted it, properly, I think. For hydrolock, we have at least one cyl with valves closed and in its compression stroke but reaching a point where the entire volume is filled with an incompressible fluid (like water) thus preventing further rotation of the engine. This scenario almost always begins and ends in something like waist-deep (or deeper) water as George related, not at home in your drive after a normal shutdown.
George, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you started down a similar path when you were talking individual cyl volume and then invoked the same rules regarding speculation to short-circuit the math/physics req'd to determine what quantity water would be req'd to fill that volume as ice, once it expands? Then rejected same...and rightly so, I think.
Given the sparse nature of our facts, I tried to envision a scenario that would account for everything we think we know so far...try this:
Some moisture was introduced to his cylinders upon shutdown, which was vaporized by the latent heat in the cylinders and pistons. This moisture subsequently condensed on the cylinder walls, piston tops, cyl-piston interface and rings, and valve surfaces and valve-seats. With further exsposure to the low temperatures, the car cooled further, freezing this moisture in-place. Since the car really didn't want to crank at 5 deg F in the first place (oil viscosity, etc,) and since noodlearm distrusted his battery enough to replace it, it didn't require a solid ball of ice between one piston and the head to lock it, rather the glaze on all cyl's was sufficient.
So where did the water come from?
1) Noodlearm has no airfilter or has a breach in the hose between his filter and engine and a "grunch" of snow fell from somewhere on the car and was sucked into the intake at the EXACT moment of shutdown.
2) Noodlearm had a small slug of water in his fuel tank that made its way to the pump inlet, up through the system, and was injected into (some or all of) the cylinders at the EXACT moment of shutdown (possibly, the engine was "stumbling" simultaneously whilst losing spark due to shutdown)
Ok...weak, I'll grant you....but I'm just trying to find a scenario that fits our facts until more facts come available. 1) is easily eliminated with confirmation that the filtered air path is intact. 2) would require fueling that morning when it was operated, i would think. Whenever water was introduced into the fuel, it would not take terribly long for it to find its way to the pump inlet which is normally low in the tank to minimize unusable fuel. Water, being of greater density...seeks the low bits. Once the pump starts sucking water, you will have some very bad running, if running at all, until you've exhausted the water supply.
One thing is quite clear in all this: I don't have nearly enough to do today!!!
Personally, if my car wouldn't crank at all at 5F, especially on a new batt. my first step would be to heat it up and try again. On the other hand, if I had been convinced it were due to a broken-rod/major internal engine damage, and a shop returned it with new plugs, working great, and a $2-$3K bill, eh...maybe fair. (Noodlearm has his Jag back from the dead for <$3k and lots of times...that may be a bargain!) on the other hand, given what we are told of replaced parts...seems he could have resurrected it with a bit of piped-in sunshine, so the bill is a bit criminal. Hope he weighs-in with more information before signing the house over the repair shop.....
1) STR was driven early in the day (we don't know for how long) then parked and shutdown with everything normal.
2) Later that day, in 5 deg F ambient, a start was attempted with a no-crank result. (we don't know how long it cold-soaked nor if it was 5 deg all day or cooling down to that or warming up to it during the day)
3) Battery replacement had no effect (no information on ambient temps during this phase)
4) Towed to a shop who confirmed crankshaft locked in place and declared "broken connecting rod."(no information on ambient temps during this phase, with the exception of difficulty getting it to a second shop because of snow...so we know it was "cold')
5) Delivered to another shop which reported "ice on spark plugs" and wants $2k-$3k for "diagnostics" and plug-change. (still no information on ambient temps during this phase, though we can assume <32 deg F given "ice on plugs" declaration - though my brain is straining a bit at this....these guys pull the plugs outside? or push it in and start immediately? - I know it would take a bit of time to thaw if plugs were iced....still...)
IF you accept "ice on plugs" as a fact, you don't necessarily have to accept water in the cylinders as the reason it won't crank, but you do have to allow the mechanism as to how that could eventuate and assess how such possibilities may be related to the problem. I THINK we'd all agree enough moisture to show as ice on the plugs is abnormal, though we may not all agree it is a fact (his shop may be blowing sunshine up his briefs to melt the ice)
George, I can go part-way with you here but not whole-hog. Yes, there should be enough residual heat in the pistons/cyl walls of a freshly-shutdown engine to boil any water that finds itself in there. Yes, it is probably going to obey the laws of hot gasses and expand which will take some, not all, out any opening (an open intake or exh. valve) However, not only will some steam be left in the cyl, but let's not forget there are at least a few cyls that do not have any open valves at the point the crank comes to rest upon shutdown. (someone looking at drawings and/or possessing intimate knowledge of the mill in question could no-doubt tell us the max and min # cyl's that could be so-configured at any point around the crank's rotation, but that is the beauty of speculation, one only need prove plausibility and leave the grungy details for when more facts are known!) So whatever water-charge is introduced, we have at least one cyl, probably more retaining the full charge.
Several of us spoke earlier of hydrolock, then discounted it, properly, I think. For hydrolock, we have at least one cyl with valves closed and in its compression stroke but reaching a point where the entire volume is filled with an incompressible fluid (like water) thus preventing further rotation of the engine. This scenario almost always begins and ends in something like waist-deep (or deeper) water as George related, not at home in your drive after a normal shutdown.
George, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you started down a similar path when you were talking individual cyl volume and then invoked the same rules regarding speculation to short-circuit the math/physics req'd to determine what quantity water would be req'd to fill that volume as ice, once it expands? Then rejected same...and rightly so, I think.
Given the sparse nature of our facts, I tried to envision a scenario that would account for everything we think we know so far...try this:
Some moisture was introduced to his cylinders upon shutdown, which was vaporized by the latent heat in the cylinders and pistons. This moisture subsequently condensed on the cylinder walls, piston tops, cyl-piston interface and rings, and valve surfaces and valve-seats. With further exsposure to the low temperatures, the car cooled further, freezing this moisture in-place. Since the car really didn't want to crank at 5 deg F in the first place (oil viscosity, etc,) and since noodlearm distrusted his battery enough to replace it, it didn't require a solid ball of ice between one piston and the head to lock it, rather the glaze on all cyl's was sufficient.
So where did the water come from?
1) Noodlearm has no airfilter or has a breach in the hose between his filter and engine and a "grunch" of snow fell from somewhere on the car and was sucked into the intake at the EXACT moment of shutdown.
2) Noodlearm had a small slug of water in his fuel tank that made its way to the pump inlet, up through the system, and was injected into (some or all of) the cylinders at the EXACT moment of shutdown (possibly, the engine was "stumbling" simultaneously whilst losing spark due to shutdown)
Ok...weak, I'll grant you....but I'm just trying to find a scenario that fits our facts until more facts come available. 1) is easily eliminated with confirmation that the filtered air path is intact. 2) would require fueling that morning when it was operated, i would think. Whenever water was introduced into the fuel, it would not take terribly long for it to find its way to the pump inlet which is normally low in the tank to minimize unusable fuel. Water, being of greater density...seeks the low bits. Once the pump starts sucking water, you will have some very bad running, if running at all, until you've exhausted the water supply.
One thing is quite clear in all this: I don't have nearly enough to do today!!!
Personally, if my car wouldn't crank at all at 5F, especially on a new batt. my first step would be to heat it up and try again. On the other hand, if I had been convinced it were due to a broken-rod/major internal engine damage, and a shop returned it with new plugs, working great, and a $2-$3K bill, eh...maybe fair. (Noodlearm has his Jag back from the dead for <$3k and lots of times...that may be a bargain!) on the other hand, given what we are told of replaced parts...seems he could have resurrected it with a bit of piped-in sunshine, so the bill is a bit criminal. Hope he weighs-in with more information before signing the house over the repair shop.....
LOL! I agree with you and actually had in my previous post before editing it out that there are precious few things that will make a mechanical device totally inoperative one minute yet perfectly functional the next (ice being the main culprit) with little or no evidence of damage....right up UNTIL you introduce electronic control..."Trons" (in my world, at least) are frequently capable of such behavior (dysfunctional one minute, fully functional the next) with no apparent "fix" effected save maybe cycling pwr or a sharp rap with a spanner! But I took it out because I thought it best if someone skilled in the black-art of tron behavior (such as yourself) lodged the accusation!
Yes! I do believe it would work this way. Remember? first we boil it all up into steam, so we have a very humid atmosphere. As the engine cools, the vapor will condense on the cooler metal. Further cooling will give a sheen of ice on all the coated surfaces. OK...yes...better "flash freezing" for an even coating all over...but still, I think we'd have a bit of ice everywhere (even up top on the plugs) even though the thicker layer would be on the piston and perhaps the rings. All the water won't fall out of suspension at once, even though as it condenses on the walls it will tend to run down, it will still condense at the top as relatively warm moist air (warm, may be 34F in this case) contacts the cooler surfaces. And I don't entirely discount a form of flash-freezing. It was 5F after all. I would suspect the wind was howling (it was here in TX when that system came through) making for a more rapid cooling of the engine than you'd normally see just sitting there calm (though still not cooling it below 5F in contradistinction to a certain post elsewhere here in the forums
Anyhow...it is fun to speculate in a dearth of actual data and match wits with sharp guys....if you are correct and I suspect you are, we can expect noodlearm to experience this episode again at some point, because we haven't seen any evidence that either shop found/corrected an electrical issue, either.
Yes! I do believe it would work this way. Remember? first we boil it all up into steam, so we have a very humid atmosphere. As the engine cools, the vapor will condense on the cooler metal. Further cooling will give a sheen of ice on all the coated surfaces. OK...yes...better "flash freezing" for an even coating all over...but still, I think we'd have a bit of ice everywhere (even up top on the plugs) even though the thicker layer would be on the piston and perhaps the rings. All the water won't fall out of suspension at once, even though as it condenses on the walls it will tend to run down, it will still condense at the top as relatively warm moist air (warm, may be 34F in this case) contacts the cooler surfaces. And I don't entirely discount a form of flash-freezing. It was 5F after all. I would suspect the wind was howling (it was here in TX when that system came through) making for a more rapid cooling of the engine than you'd normally see just sitting there calm (though still not cooling it below 5F in contradistinction to a certain post elsewhere here in the forums
Anyhow...it is fun to speculate in a dearth of actual data and match wits with sharp guys....if you are correct and I suspect you are, we can expect noodlearm to experience this episode again at some point, because we haven't seen any evidence that either shop found/corrected an electrical issue, either.
, but two things come to mind here, first the cylinder bores have to be impregnated with at least a minute coating of engine oil, which is hydrophobic. Hence condensation wouldn't adhere well to the bores, UNLESS the bores were already below freezing allowing a rapid (as I said before almost flash) freezing of the newly condensed water. Second, How much moisture could .5l (assuming the piston was at the absolute BOTTOM of it's stroke) of air hold at say 250 deg f, which would condense out and cause enough ice to mechanically lock an engine. The whole idea seems far fetched to me... As does this magical introduction of water into an engine, only to have no signs of it's origin afterwards. (shaking head). I'm on my way out the door for the evening but more tomorrow LOL.
Take care,
George
#105
02-19-2011, 08:47 PM
Sounds like this mechanic is just taking this guy for a ride. If was him I would request all the documentation of the diagnosing and to show me what exactly is wrong. The whole thing sounds so wrong. Next thing you know he is gonna be paying this guy to replace his muffler bearings and flush his headlight fluid.
Maybe he ran over a unicorn and it was underneath his car when he parked it then while in the garage is started bucking to get out from underneath the car and busted holes in the oil pan with its horn. (Dane Cook reference about getting taken by auto mechanics)
Maybe he ran over a unicorn and it was underneath his car when he parked it then while in the garage is started bucking to get out from underneath the car and busted holes in the oil pan with its horn. (Dane Cook reference about getting taken by auto mechanics)
#107
02-19-2011, 09:52 PM
Veteran Member
#108
02-19-2011, 11:39 PM
Senior Member
interesting problem.
I would have to assume that there was something physically binding up the engine as 2 shops couldn't rotate it by hand. this to me rules out an electrical problem such as starter or security system. I would also think it not possible to have an engine run fine but yet have enough moisture in the cyls to ice the plugs.
I would have to assume that there was something physically binding up the engine as 2 shops couldn't rotate it by hand. this to me rules out an electrical problem such as starter or security system. I would also think it not possible to have an engine run fine but yet have enough moisture in the cyls to ice the plugs.
#109
02-19-2011, 11:49 PM
Veteran Member
Yep. Walls should be a bit oily....but then in our magical scenario, we steam-cleaned them just before we tried to coat them with ice.
Second, How much moisture could .5l (assuming the piston was at the absolute BOTTOM of it's stroke) of air hold at say 250 deg f, which would condense out and cause enough ice to mechanically lock an engine. The whole idea seems far fetched to me... As does this magical introduction of water into an engine, only to have no signs of it's origin afterwards. (shaking head).
I never postulated that any of this was likely, only trying to imagine a set of circumstances that fit the facts as we know them and "may" be possible should the stars all align perfectly. "Far-fetched" may even be a bit generous as a probability. BFS, lol...you're getting rougher on my screen name than Rick, lol. Interesting idea on the starter, but that's one for George. I can "imagine" blowing snow at 5F packing a fair amount of moisture in there that melts then re-freezes inside the starter due to a bit of heat form the morning run. I'm drawing a blank on getting a bit of ice to lock up a dc motor, though.
Didn't get much done today other than to wash the VDP for the Daddy-Daughter dance, and tomorrow will most likely tackle rear pads and rotors on the wife's 05. Hopefully, Noodlearm jumps back on and fills us in on what really happened by the time I get back here.
G'night all,
Zane
One last thing, George, or someone else....please educate me how you quote mutliple previous posts in one post?
#110
02-20-2011, 06:41 AM
Join Date: Oct 2007
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We've certainly covered a multitude of subjects in this thread, and it is strangely still connected to the OP's problem!
For the multiquoting, there is a multiquote button atb the bottom right of each post just click that in each post that you want to quote then click the regular quote button in the final one and Bobs your uncle.
For the multiquoting, there is a multiquote button atb the bottom right of each post just click that in each post that you want to quote then click the regular quote button in the final one and Bobs your uncle.
Last edited by Norri; 02-20-2011 at 06:08 PM.
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#111
02-20-2011, 07:15 AM
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#112
02-20-2011, 09:36 AM
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#113
02-20-2011, 12:37 PM
Veteran Member
Er, is it necessarily true that the engine could not be rotated by hand? Has anyone trustworthy made that claim?
If it just "wouldn't turn over" or "wouldn't try to fire", those could easily be electrical/electronic. The SCLM (think: ignition lock) can cause some odd things, for example.
I'm not even convinced it's fixed. Just that it is running. For now.
BTW, multiquote is on the right as I see posts
If it just "wouldn't turn over" or "wouldn't try to fire", those could easily be electrical/electronic. The SCLM (think: ignition lock) can cause some odd things, for example.
I'm not even convinced it's fixed. Just that it is running. For now.
BTW, multiquote is on the right as I see posts
#114
02-20-2011, 12:47 PM
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Living in Canada where such things would make operating a car impossible for up to 6 months a year makes it an amusing read.
#115
02-20-2011, 01:09 PM
Veteran Member
#116
02-20-2011, 02:14 PM
Veteran Member
LOL! I wrestled with this awhile...in the very end...just hoped you wouldn't think of it...or, failing that, perhaps you wouldn't mention it. No such luck
Yep. Walls should be a bit oily....but then in our magical scenario, we steam-cleaned them just before we tried to coat them with ice.
Yep. Walls should be a bit oily....but then in our magical scenario, we steam-cleaned them just before we tried to coat them with ice.
Not gonna be dragged into something I'd have to go break out old textbooks and review how to calculate and then actually grind numbers....I'll leave that to the OP when he has to prove it happened to get a break from his mechanic on the bill I never postulated that any of this was likely, only trying to imagine a set of circumstances that fit the facts as we know them and "may" be possible should the stars all align perfectly. "Far-fetched" may even be a bit generous as a probability.
BFS, lol...you're getting rougher on my screen name than Rick, lol. Interesting idea on the starter, but that's one for George. I can "imagine" blowing snow at 5F packing a fair amount of moisture in there that melts then re-freezes inside the starter due to a bit of heat form the morning run. I'm drawing a blank on getting a bit of ice to lock up a dc motor, though.
I never postulated that any of this was likely, only trying to imagine a set of circumstances that fit the facts as we know them and "may" be possible should the stars all align perfectly. "Far-fetched" may even be a bit generous as a probability. BFS, lol...you're getting rougher on my screen name than Rick, lol. Interesting idea on the starter, but that's one for George. I can "imagine" blowing snow at 5F packing a fair amount of moisture in there that melts then re-freezes inside the starter due to a bit of heat form the morning run. I'm drawing a blank on getting a bit of ice to lock up a dc motor, though.
BFG: Water / snow accumulation isn't likely in the starter? Have you seen the starter it's casing is externally sealed. Beyond that, IF it were to get enough water inside of it to mechanically lock it, say there was some super special wind that managed to get a significant amount of water into it, past the belly pan, past the sealed casing, and it froze. It would dead short the starter. Remember water conducts electricity. (Getting electrocuted dropping a hair drier into a bathtub, that whole thing
) Moment the key went on, you'd start popping fuses, relays, and possibly even a fusible link. It wouldn't just thaw out and be fine, if you attempted to crank it with it frozen solid. Notice the only two holes are the vent holes facing towards the block
Er, is it necessarily true that the engine could not be rotated by hand? Has anyone trustworthy made that claim?
If it just "wouldn't turn over" or "wouldn't try to fire", those could easily be electrical/electronic. The SCLM (think: ignition lock) can cause some odd things, for example.
I'm not even convinced it's fixed. Just that it is running. For now.
If it just "wouldn't turn over" or "wouldn't try to fire", those could easily be electrical/electronic. The SCLM (think: ignition lock) can cause some odd things, for example.
I'm not even convinced it's fixed. Just that it is running. For now.
All we know about the 2nd shop is that they claim to have pulled a plug and found it iced over, after 2-3k worth of "diagnostic testing", and that they disproved the first shops theory of a broken connecting rod. I don't remember anyone saying that the first shop couldn't turn the engine by hand.
I've never tried to turn over an STR engine by hand, especially with the S/C belt still connected, but I imagine in 5 deg F weather, with the oil resembling honey, and with the blower connected it would take a significant amount of torque. (Think big breaker bar on the crank pulley).
Take care guys,
George
#118
02-20-2011, 02:32 PM
Veteran Member
Unleaded Gasoline freezes at about -150deg F. It's entirely possible that the underground tank could get to below 32 degrees F, possibly allowing the water in the tank to freeze.
Most tanks are underground for convenience / use of space requirements. Have you seen the size of a 20,000 gallon tank??
Take care,
George
Most tanks are underground for convenience / use of space requirements. Have you seen the size of a 20,000 gallon tank??
Take care,
George
#119
02-20-2011, 02:49 PM
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#120
02-20-2011, 02:54 PM
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If that were true, then municipal water and sewage systems would freeze also, not to mention fire hydrants. The coldest our municipal water temp gets in winter is about 10*C.