Broken Rod
#121
02-20-2011, 02:58 PM
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Very different scenario.
Take care,
George
#122
02-20-2011, 04:20 PM
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#123
02-20-2011, 04:28 PM
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The water doesn't freeze simply because the earth surrounding it is well above freezing temps- probably around 10-15*C. The ground here only freezes to about 50CM depths even during the coldest winters.
Water pipes are buried typically 2.5-3 meters.
#125
02-20-2011, 05:28 PM
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02-20-2011, 06:21 PM
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#127
02-20-2011, 06:32 PM
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FIrst of all, I don't believe we have enough information to diagnose noodlearm's problem. However, since it is always open-season for speculation, let the fun begin! I reread the entire thread looking for statements of fact and instead learned a host of information about forced-air induction and mothers! Even so, I think we have this:
1) STR was driven early in the day (we don't know for how long) then parked and shutdown with everything normal.
2) Later that day, in 5 deg F ambient, a start was attempted with a no-crank result. (we don't know how long it cold-soaked nor if it was 5 deg all day or cooling down to that or warming up to it during the day)
3) Battery replacement had no effect (no information on ambient temps during this phase)
4) Towed to a shop who confirmed crankshaft locked in place and declared "broken connecting rod."(no information on ambient temps during this phase, with the exception of difficulty getting it to a second shop because of snow...so we know it was "cold')
5) Delivered to another shop which reported "ice on spark plugs" and wants $2k-$3k for "diagnostics" and plug-change. (still no information on ambient temps during this phase, though we can assume <32 deg F given "ice on plugs" declaration - though my brain is straining a bit at this....these guys pull the plugs outside? or push it in and start immediately? - I know it would take a bit of time to thaw if plugs were iced....still...)
IF you accept "ice on plugs" as a fact, you don't necessarily have to accept water in the cylinders as the reason it won't crank, but you do have to allow the mechanism as to how that could eventuate and assess how such possibilities may be related to the problem. I THINK we'd all agree enough moisture to show as ice on the plugs is abnormal, though we may not all agree it is a fact (his shop may be blowing sunshine up his briefs to melt the ice)
George, I can go part-way with you here but not whole-hog. Yes, there should be enough residual heat in the pistons/cyl walls of a freshly-shutdown engine to boil any water that finds itself in there. Yes, it is probably going to obey the laws of hot gasses and expand which will take some, not all, out any opening (an open intake or exh. valve) However, not only will some steam be left in the cyl, but let's not forget there are at least a few cyls that do not have any open valves at the point the crank comes to rest upon shutdown. (someone looking at drawings and/or possessing intimate knowledge of the mill in question could no-doubt tell us the max and min # cyl's that could be so-configured at any point around the crank's rotation, but that is the beauty of speculation, one only need prove plausibility and leave the grungy details for when more facts are known!) So whatever water-charge is introduced, we have at least one cyl, probably more retaining the full charge.
Several of us spoke earlier of hydrolock, then discounted it, properly, I think. For hydrolock, we have at least one cyl with valves closed and in its compression stroke but reaching a point where the entire volume is filled with an incompressible fluid (like water) thus preventing further rotation of the engine. This scenario almost always begins and ends in something like waist-deep (or deeper) water as George related, not at home in your drive after a normal shutdown.
George, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you started down a similar path when you were talking individual cyl volume and then invoked the same rules regarding speculation to short-circuit the math/physics req'd to determine what quantity water would be req'd to fill that volume as ice, once it expands? Then rejected same...and rightly so, I think.
Given the sparse nature of our facts, I tried to envision a scenario that would account for everything we think we know so far...try this:
Some moisture was introduced to his cylinders upon shutdown, which was vaporized by the latent heat in the cylinders and pistons. This moisture subsequently condensed on the cylinder walls, piston tops, cyl-piston interface and rings, and valve surfaces and valve-seats. With further exsposure to the low temperatures, the car cooled further, freezing this moisture in-place. Since the car really didn't want to crank at 5 deg F in the first place (oil viscosity, etc,) and since noodlearm distrusted his battery enough to replace it, it didn't require a solid ball of ice between one piston and the head to lock it, rather the glaze on all cyl's was sufficient.
So where did the water come from?
1) Noodlearm has no airfilter or has a breach in the hose between his filter and engine and a "grunch" of snow fell from somewhere on the car and was sucked into the intake at the EXACT moment of shutdown.
2) Noodlearm had a small slug of water in his fuel tank that made its way to the pump inlet, up through the system, and was injected into (some or all of) the cylinders at the EXACT moment of shutdown (possibly, the engine was "stumbling" simultaneously whilst losing spark due to shutdown)
Ok...weak, I'll grant you....but I'm just trying to find a scenario that fits our facts until more facts come available. 1) is easily eliminated with confirmation that the filtered air path is intact. 2) would require fueling that morning when it was operated, i would think. Whenever water was introduced into the fuel, it would not take terribly long for it to find its way to the pump inlet which is normally low in the tank to minimize unusable fuel. Water, being of greater density...seeks the low bits. Once the pump starts sucking water, you will have some very bad running, if running at all, until you've exhausted the water supply.
One thing is quite clear in all this: I don't have nearly enough to do today!!!
Personally, if my car wouldn't crank at all at 5F, especially on a new batt. my first step would be to heat it up and try again. On the other hand, if I had been convinced it were due to a broken-rod/major internal engine damage, and a shop returned it with new plugs, working great, and a $2-$3K bill, eh...maybe fair. (Noodlearm has his Jag back from the dead for <$3k and lots of times...that may be a bargain!) on the other hand, given what we are told of replaced parts...seems he could have resurrected it with a bit of piped-in sunshine, so the bill is a bit criminal. Hope he weighs-in with more information before signing the house over the repair shop.....
1) STR was driven early in the day (we don't know for how long) then parked and shutdown with everything normal.
2) Later that day, in 5 deg F ambient, a start was attempted with a no-crank result. (we don't know how long it cold-soaked nor if it was 5 deg all day or cooling down to that or warming up to it during the day)
3) Battery replacement had no effect (no information on ambient temps during this phase)
4) Towed to a shop who confirmed crankshaft locked in place and declared "broken connecting rod."(no information on ambient temps during this phase, with the exception of difficulty getting it to a second shop because of snow...so we know it was "cold')
5) Delivered to another shop which reported "ice on spark plugs" and wants $2k-$3k for "diagnostics" and plug-change. (still no information on ambient temps during this phase, though we can assume <32 deg F given "ice on plugs" declaration - though my brain is straining a bit at this....these guys pull the plugs outside? or push it in and start immediately? - I know it would take a bit of time to thaw if plugs were iced....still...)
IF you accept "ice on plugs" as a fact, you don't necessarily have to accept water in the cylinders as the reason it won't crank, but you do have to allow the mechanism as to how that could eventuate and assess how such possibilities may be related to the problem. I THINK we'd all agree enough moisture to show as ice on the plugs is abnormal, though we may not all agree it is a fact (his shop may be blowing sunshine up his briefs to melt the ice)
George, I can go part-way with you here but not whole-hog. Yes, there should be enough residual heat in the pistons/cyl walls of a freshly-shutdown engine to boil any water that finds itself in there. Yes, it is probably going to obey the laws of hot gasses and expand which will take some, not all, out any opening (an open intake or exh. valve) However, not only will some steam be left in the cyl, but let's not forget there are at least a few cyls that do not have any open valves at the point the crank comes to rest upon shutdown. (someone looking at drawings and/or possessing intimate knowledge of the mill in question could no-doubt tell us the max and min # cyl's that could be so-configured at any point around the crank's rotation, but that is the beauty of speculation, one only need prove plausibility and leave the grungy details for when more facts are known!) So whatever water-charge is introduced, we have at least one cyl, probably more retaining the full charge.
Several of us spoke earlier of hydrolock, then discounted it, properly, I think. For hydrolock, we have at least one cyl with valves closed and in its compression stroke but reaching a point where the entire volume is filled with an incompressible fluid (like water) thus preventing further rotation of the engine. This scenario almost always begins and ends in something like waist-deep (or deeper) water as George related, not at home in your drive after a normal shutdown.
George, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you started down a similar path when you were talking individual cyl volume and then invoked the same rules regarding speculation to short-circuit the math/physics req'd to determine what quantity water would be req'd to fill that volume as ice, once it expands? Then rejected same...and rightly so, I think.
Given the sparse nature of our facts, I tried to envision a scenario that would account for everything we think we know so far...try this:
Some moisture was introduced to his cylinders upon shutdown, which was vaporized by the latent heat in the cylinders and pistons. This moisture subsequently condensed on the cylinder walls, piston tops, cyl-piston interface and rings, and valve surfaces and valve-seats. With further exsposure to the low temperatures, the car cooled further, freezing this moisture in-place. Since the car really didn't want to crank at 5 deg F in the first place (oil viscosity, etc,) and since noodlearm distrusted his battery enough to replace it, it didn't require a solid ball of ice between one piston and the head to lock it, rather the glaze on all cyl's was sufficient.
So where did the water come from?
1) Noodlearm has no airfilter or has a breach in the hose between his filter and engine and a "grunch" of snow fell from somewhere on the car and was sucked into the intake at the EXACT moment of shutdown.
2) Noodlearm had a small slug of water in his fuel tank that made its way to the pump inlet, up through the system, and was injected into (some or all of) the cylinders at the EXACT moment of shutdown (possibly, the engine was "stumbling" simultaneously whilst losing spark due to shutdown)
Ok...weak, I'll grant you....but I'm just trying to find a scenario that fits our facts until more facts come available. 1) is easily eliminated with confirmation that the filtered air path is intact. 2) would require fueling that morning when it was operated, i would think. Whenever water was introduced into the fuel, it would not take terribly long for it to find its way to the pump inlet which is normally low in the tank to minimize unusable fuel. Water, being of greater density...seeks the low bits. Once the pump starts sucking water, you will have some very bad running, if running at all, until you've exhausted the water supply.
One thing is quite clear in all this: I don't have nearly enough to do today!!!
Personally, if my car wouldn't crank at all at 5F, especially on a new batt. my first step would be to heat it up and try again. On the other hand, if I had been convinced it were due to a broken-rod/major internal engine damage, and a shop returned it with new plugs, working great, and a $2-$3K bill, eh...maybe fair. (Noodlearm has his Jag back from the dead for <$3k and lots of times...that may be a bargain!) on the other hand, given what we are told of replaced parts...seems he could have resurrected it with a bit of piped-in sunshine, so the bill is a bit criminal. Hope he weighs-in with more information before signing the house over the repair shop.....
Well, I certainly wish I had just towed it to my wifes family tooling shop and let it sit inside a few days to see what happened. As for the temperature, that particular day was never above 7 degrees or so. I did not drive through any water although there was definitely snow on the ground. I believe the mechanic said something about broken coil covers, I have all the paperwork at work currently and can't remember what he wrote. I certainly agree with what most stated that if he started it and ran fine, why such a high bill for basically diagnostic work and spark plug and oil change. I am obviously extremely upset at the dealership (which had done all scheduled maintenance) for the first mis-diagnosis, and pissed that I still have a bill this large with no "real problem". I was away for a few days and hopefully thie mechanic will have some more answers for me.
#128
02-20-2011, 09:00 PM
Veteran Member
Please scan and post the mechanics paperwork.... I believe WE ALL would love to read it!
#130
02-20-2011, 09:32 PM
Veteran Member
Well, I finally have another update. It certainly appears that most of you were correct and it was not a broken rod, which is obviously good news. It appears that water was somehow sucked into the engine and froze, the sparks plugs were covered with ice and after melting, the car ran quite well according to the mechanic. He is currently diagnosing where and how the water got in there in the first place. It looks like my total bill is going to run into the $2000-$3000 range from all the testing and an oil change and new spark plugs. I will keep you all updated once I find out more info
Thanks
Thanks
Well, I certainly wish I had just towed it to my wifes family tooling shop and let it sit inside a few days to see what happened. As for the temperature, that particular day was never above 7 degrees or so. I did not drive through any water although there was definitely snow on the ground. I believe the mechanic said something about broken coil covers, I have all the paperwork at work currently and can't remember what he wrote. I certainly agree with what most stated that if he started it and ran fine, why such a high bill for basically diagnostic work and spark plug and oil change. I am obviously extremely upset at the dealership (which had done all scheduled maintenance) for the first mis-diagnosis, and pissed that I still have a bill this large with no "real problem". I was away for a few days and hopefully thie mechanic will have some more answers for me.
So.....now it begins to sound like he let the car warm a bit, started it and ran it....then "declared" it was water/ice and changed your oil and plugs.
You mentioned he was diagnosing how the water got in there in first place, and further mentioned a bill on the order of $2k-$3k. I certainly hope he has a $2k or better answer!!! Just ice-bound plug-gaps would not prevent it from cranking, only from firing. You'd need a full-on heavy glazing of ice on the cylinder walls strong enough to prevent piston movement for that to happen. Now....it seems your car sat for awhile and had some analysis at a dealership. This means it must have logged at least a bit of time inside where it was warmer.....still wouldn't crank before it left there?
Moving backward....the STR sat out all night and started at 7F or less? If so, you'd certainly expect it to start later in the day at 5F, after running. So if indeed there was a water-intrusion issue it would've had to have occurred on your morning jaunt. I believe you reported conditions only of snow on the ground, not driving through blizzard-like whiteout? Don't mean to be a downer or anything...but I'm leaning toward rogue-trons as your problem....meaning it has only gone into remission, not really cured, and will return one fine day.
Good luck negotiating the bill with the shop. Make them give you good answers that pass the "smell test." I'm afraid you'll go out one bright, crisp morning and find it does the same thing.
Keep us posted,
Zane
#131
02-20-2011, 09:49 PM
Veteran Member
Rick! you use that 6 yr old for the close clearance bolts and stuff?
'bout 8 years ago or so I wrestled with a cotter pin under the bowels of my John Deere AWS for several hours and 3 pages of short-vocabulary before I finally got the bright idea to go down to the house and ask the then-9 yr old for a bit o' help. I'm a bit of a squirt, myself, but just no room in there for my hands. He had it out in about 45 sec. but I made him stick around until I was ready for installation....but made him put it back in opposite so I could get it back out again now that all the boys have bigger hands than me! (well....the 11 yr old's aren't YET bigger but it won't be long)
'bout 8 years ago or so I wrestled with a cotter pin under the bowels of my John Deere AWS for several hours and 3 pages of short-vocabulary before I finally got the bright idea to go down to the house and ask the then-9 yr old for a bit o' help. I'm a bit of a squirt, myself, but just no room in there for my hands. He had it out in about 45 sec. but I made him stick around until I was ready for installation....but made him put it back in opposite so I could get it back out again now that all the boys have bigger hands than me! (well....the 11 yr old's aren't YET bigger but it won't be long)
#132
02-20-2011, 10:01 PM
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#133
02-20-2011, 10:18 PM
Veteran Member
LX 170 AWS I think....would hafta go find the broken hood I've got stashed in the Jeep for future repairs.. but it has 17 HP Kawasaki Twin, 48" Convertible deck and has been an outstanding pc. of gear. I've got nearly 200 trees more or less evenly distributed over 2 acres (excepting house, driveway, and shop) so started out looking at zero-turns (2000, before they got really cool and cheaper) and decided they would be problematic on a few small sidehills I have here....then once I "test drove" the AWS I was hooked!!!
#135
03-07-2011, 09:00 AM
Veteran Member
Has anyone noticed that $2k-$3k amounts to 20 to 30 hours of "diagnostics" at $100/hr? (adjust shop rate as appropriate)
The OP is from a cold climate, so the local garage has experience with cars and cold climates.
Sounds like they might have done a standard "pull the plugs, insert warm plugs" to get an advantage on a cold start routine.
Whether there was ice on the plugs is based soley on what the mechanic reported. Any proof is long gone.
The OP is from a cold climate, so the local garage has experience with cars and cold climates.
Sounds like they might have done a standard "pull the plugs, insert warm plugs" to get an advantage on a cold start routine.
Whether there was ice on the plugs is based soley on what the mechanic reported. Any proof is long gone.
#136
03-07-2011, 09:53 AM
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Hi all, well the diagnosis has not changed and the 2nd shop is working on the problem. I have not been in any rush since I have another vehicle. He is supposed to be taking pictures of everything for to show the dealer how they screwed up the origianl diagnosis of broken rod but we shall see. Once I get the vehicle back, I will update again.
#137
03-07-2011, 06:04 PM
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#138
03-07-2011, 06:59 PM
Senior Member
WHERE OH WHERE DID THE WATER COME FROM?
When you run a gasoline engine, you make one gallon of water for every gallon of gas that you burn. You can see it come out of the tailpipe when the engine is cold. I see it even in sunny Southern California.
Now days the cooling systems on cars are set up to get the engine up to operating temperature as quick as possible to cut emissions.
Back in the 50's and 60's it wasn't uncommon to see the white cream engine oil in cars that weren't driven far enough to cook out the water vapor. Add water to hot oil and it will give you white creamy goo.
Frozen engines happen in very cold climates. This is why things like block heaters, oil pan heaters and inline heaters for lines to the heater core are sold to people who don't want the stuck engine blues.
They even come from the factory installed on the big diesel engines.
When you run a gasoline engine, you make one gallon of water for every gallon of gas that you burn. You can see it come out of the tailpipe when the engine is cold. I see it even in sunny Southern California.
Now days the cooling systems on cars are set up to get the engine up to operating temperature as quick as possible to cut emissions.
Back in the 50's and 60's it wasn't uncommon to see the white cream engine oil in cars that weren't driven far enough to cook out the water vapor. Add water to hot oil and it will give you white creamy goo.
Frozen engines happen in very cold climates. This is why things like block heaters, oil pan heaters and inline heaters for lines to the heater core are sold to people who don't want the stuck engine blues.
They even come from the factory installed on the big diesel engines.
#139
03-07-2011, 07:22 PM
Diesel engines have to have a block heater for cold climates. They dont use spark plugs. I used to drive a truck in Michigan and god forbid you forgot to plug it in at night in the winter you werent going anywhere the next day. The modern diesels you try to spray in some starting fluid your gonna fry up the turbo cause you are gonna dry up the bearings. Had that happen once also. I advised against the starting fluid but the guy getting it running did it anyways. I never did thank him for the 3 hour sitting in a cab with no heat since the turbo was fried experience I had.
Is it really a 1gal to 1gal ratio? That means every 12 gallons of gas I burn I've got 12 gallons of water shooting out of my tailpipe. Seems like alot.
I lived in Michigan for 12 years and had different cars during that time. Some old and I never had an engine freeze like that. I would figure a newer designed engine such as one from the STR would be hard to do something like that in. I also lived next to Lake Erie with no garage where the temps were always consistantly lower then anywhere else from the lake breeze and never had a problem with engines. Pipes bursting in the house is another story. As long as I had a good battery my vehicles always cranked with no problem.
Is it really a 1gal to 1gal ratio? That means every 12 gallons of gas I burn I've got 12 gallons of water shooting out of my tailpipe. Seems like alot.
I lived in Michigan for 12 years and had different cars during that time. Some old and I never had an engine freeze like that. I would figure a newer designed engine such as one from the STR would be hard to do something like that in. I also lived next to Lake Erie with no garage where the temps were always consistantly lower then anywhere else from the lake breeze and never had a problem with engines. Pipes bursting in the house is another story. As long as I had a good battery my vehicles always cranked with no problem.
Last edited by vance580; 03-07-2011 at 07:27 PM.
#140
03-07-2011, 07:40 PM
Veteran Member
The old mechanical fuel injected Saabs would start after sitting for three months in below zero weather as long as you had enough battery to spin it even once and catch the first spark. Without plugging in and running 20W-50 Castrol @ 440K. Then again, it didn't even have a clock to drain the battery.
Last edited by plums; 03-07-2011 at 07:42 PM.