2003 S-Type 3.0

Has anyone found a definitive fix other than bypassing or removing the solenoid. This is not the locked in park due to the pawls but the problem with the solenoid retracting when the brake is depressed. I have the problem temporarily fixed by bypassing the solenoid but I want to sell the car and don't want to sell with this safety issue.

I have read all the posts and unless I've missed something I can't seem to find anyone who has solved this. I have a new brake switch on order but I'm not confident that will solve the problem. I've looked at my manual and there is no relay identified as going to the j-gate solenoid that I can find. If there is one does anyone know the relay location and number. I read there may be a ground problem but does anyone know where the ground is located? I can't seem to open the JTIS on this computer so I can't get to the wiring diagrams. Any help from the expertise on this site as well as anyone who has solved this problem would be appreciated. Seems to be a common problem that someone surely has figured out by now. Thanks again, and I've missed something in the threads that addresses a solution (not just the problem) I sincerely apologize but I'm getting frustrated at searching at this point.

Thanks in advance

 

I'm lost as to who you think has had what you think you have yet you think they failed to solve it - you think they just left the car standing or what?

JTIS is probably your best bet. If you give up on it then get the similar stuff off ebay - it's very cheap.

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I know the short term fixes like the over-ride capability and/or removing the solenoid etc. That will get the car home. I've done those things and have the car running fine but it can come out of park without hitting the brake. That's fine for me but I want to sell the car and it seems like its certainly a safety issue and probability a liability issue even if I inform the buyer of the problem. It's just that there have been several threads on over-riding the solenoid one way or another. However, they all end at that. No one that I can find has posted "here is why the solenoid wouldn't work and here is how I fixed it" I'll be happy to post that if I can get it sorted and fixed to work like it should.

Something has caused the solenoid to not work. It could be the solenoid itself (which I don't think is the problem with mine since I can put 12 volts across the connections and it works. It could be the brake switch (which I have ordered), it could be some sort of a relay (that I can't find), it could be in one of the "magic control boxes" that seem to be all over the place. All the threads (unless I've missed something) end with a temporary fix but not a real fix. I would think that with the number of times this happens (not a great deal in the big scheme of things I know) it might make a good "sticky thread" if someone has the solution.

There is a real wealth of knowledge on this forum and I have come to rely on it for many fixes. I was hoping someone had found the real cure for this and I just somehow couldn't find it.

I'm trying to get JTIS back up on my old computer but I haven't had much luck yet. I'll keep trying.

 

Ah, now I understand what you meant.

Trouble is that so many people don't post back what they did. Happy to take but not give back

Mostly I guess you need the electrical stuff and that's also on Gus's JagRepair.com - Jaguar Repair Information Resource

 

Just an update - I replaced the black/grey brake pedal switch. No change. I haven't have enough time to pursue on but checked the old switch and it did not appear to work correctly. The new switch does but the solenoid doesn't release?

I put 12 volts across the solenoid contacts and it worked fine. I checked the voltage at the two connections from the shifter that goes to the solenoid connector (on the supply side) and I get 11 volts there all the time now. That doesn't seem right? It would seem if the brake switch is working correctly I should have 0 volts when the brake is on and voltage when the brake is depressed.

In reading some of the material on troubleshooting the J-gate they refer to "resetting the DTC." I will search for how you do that on this forum, I'm sure its there somewhere. I think the brake on/off signal for the solenoid goes from the brake pedal through the CAN and to a module before it goes to the J-gate solenoid. More research to follow until I get this sorted but thought I'd update. If anyone has any suggestions, tips or ideas on what I'm doing wrong I'd welcome the input. Just thought this has to be a problem that someone has solved and I just can't seem to find it on the forum. When and if I do sort it I'll be sure to post. Thanks for all the help so far.

 

You are doing good trouble shooting but I don't see where you have the factory shop manual?

It's called the JTIS and is free on this site. At the level you are working you really need the manual.

Look at the top of the forum with JTIS in the name.
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I can't seem to get JTIS to work on this computer. I looked at the instructions to get it to work on a Window's 7 machine but it wasn't apparent to me - guess I'm not as gifted with a computer as I need to be. I'll try and get JTIS working but the last time I looked at JTIS I couldn't find specific info that would help me with this. If anyone knows what sections I need to look in I'd appreciate the tips for when I can get JTIS to work.

 

Do you at least have the Electrical Guide? If you installed JTIS then even if it doesn't work you have them - they're PDF files even DIR can find.

 

I got the electrical guides from Gus' site as well as the troubleshooting guide but it is pretty scarce on the Solenoid itself. It does show the solenoid as well as the brake on/off switch.

That is where I got the information in electric drawing Fig 3.05 that the Brake on/off signal apparently goes to the Engine Control Module through Connector FH 1-9, Pin PI 41-23 and Pin PI1-067. Then on Figure 4.01 there is a CAN signal for Brake ON/Off that apparently goes to the J-Gate where the solenoid is located. I can't seem to figure out what the circle wth a 17 means and the triangle with an O means. It's just a "box" as to what happens in the J-gate to get the signal to the solenoid. Is that some sort of a "J-gate module?"

I'll keep trying until I either figure it out just throw my hands in the air and sell it with a disclaimer the shifter comes out of park without the foot on the brake. With all the different reports of this on this I just find it hard to understand why no one has reported back on a fix other than just bypass the solenoid in one way or another, even if the fix is something like "its in the CAN network or TCM or ECM that has to be replaced or something else. Has no one actually fixed this? I'm not complaining, just really frustrated as for every other problem I've had this forum has been a life saver. So keep the suggestions coming and if I somehow come up with a real fix I'll be sure and report it.

 

I think everyone fixed it but nearly every person on here who fixes anything fails to help others because they don't say what they did.

Circles with numbers are explained at page bottom. Ditto triangles.

So, 17 is power (and you can follow it back if you wish, e.g. to see which fuse), the O means output (thus showing the module powers (activates if you like) the solenoid).

 

Thanks JagV8 - I'm away from the car right now but when I get back and have a little time I'll keep on trying. I can drive it fine with the solenoid disabled but I don't want to sell it that way. Its a safety issue and I'd feel terrible if someone left a kid in the car and it came out of park and somebody got hurt. Just the way I am I guess.

I'm pretty sure there is power to the J-gate as I get 12 volts at the connector (on the J-gate side) that goes to the solenoid and all the lights, etc work on the J-gate shifter.

Thanks for the tips on the meaning of the symbols. I kind of figured that was what it meant.

Maybe someone will read this and say - "wow I fixed that and this is what it was" I'm hoping its not a module problem but I guess we'll see.

Thanks again for all the help.

 

Hi Smokey, John and others ... I have been biting my tongue since each of the OP's earlier posts, and had no intention of barging in ... but ... Smokey, I sense your frustration flows out of a huge and common misunderstanding ...

It is not abnormal to find yourself surrounded by 12V seemingly everywhere. Switching the "hot" potential of +12V to make something work; then removing it with a switch to make something not work, may be our traditional thinking ... but that's not the way modern digital equipment works. For all sorts of technical reasons, electronic switches (digital controllers) operate far more efficiently and reliably by switching the ground return side of any circuit. It is also far cheaper to implement. The complex electronics in these modern Jaguars and many other vehicles have been built this way for the past 10years or more, but we tend to forget that it is not intuitive for many newcomers.

The Electrical Diagrams that [JagV8] is leading you through, generally show ...

• we start with a Power Distribution section that grounds the negative battery cable (in the boot/trunk); but divides power from the +12V battery terminal via mega-fuses to Power Distribution Fuse Boxes;

• separate fuses feed +12V to each device, perhaps via a relay but generally, not via any switch, manual or otherwise ... thus, each device is generally "hot";

• switches or an electronic controller, are used in the ground return side of each device ... in some circuits, this terminal is pulled "high" or to +12V by a "pull up" resistor or it may "float" ... but in any case, it is the function of a switch or controller channel to activate its device by "pulling down" that output terminal / device terminal to ground;

• once this principle is understood, we can examine say an interior light that is set "off" and find +12V everywhere (including both sides of the globe) ... only when the light is switched "on" is one side of the globe pulled down to ground potential, thereby creating the 12V voltage drop across the globe, and lighting it;

• in this scenario, consider the lowly door switch ... instead of the old fashioned practice of sending 1 wire of +12V to every door switch, then a 2nd wire from every switch to globe (times 4 doors) ... now, we supply +12V direct to the globe, then a single wire to each door switch which, only if it finds a ground connection, will light the globe ... wiring loom halved; costs down; reliability up;

• it appears to me that your solenoid is no different, and it is the J-gate Control Module that controls whether one side of your solenoid ever finds a ground return ... with minimal internal resistance, you are essentially reading the Battery's +12V on both sides of the solenoid until either the controller, switch (or you) pull the ground seeking side of the solenoid to ground potential.

One CAUTION must be stated ... if you go exploring with a probe that is "ground connected" at its nether end, you will unless you check carefully, have a 50/50 chance of hitting the "hot" side of some device rather than the "ground seeking" side ... and blown fuses will result.

A bit long-winded but ... I do hope this helps a better understanding,

Ken

 

Cat-
Thanks - that gives me something to think about and its the kind of input that makes troubleshooting more productive.

First I think it might be useful to make sure all the associated grounds are intact.

It would also seem that I should or could check for 12V present first to make sure that there was no voltage at the point I'm checking so I don't blow a fuse when checking for ground connections. (Correct me if I'm wrong on that)


By the way, is there a "logic module" in the J-Gate itself and where is it located? When I look at the physical shift box (the lower portion) I don't see anything that looks like a module. In fact other than the shift lock solenoid and the "not in park" switch I don't see any other electrical components. The electronics look like they are in the black shift gate itself. Wonder if that is where it is? I am away from the car right now so I'll look that over when I get back.

Again thanks for the tips and others chime in if you can lend to the discussion. For goodness sakes, don't bite you tongue if you have some ideas. All ideas are welcome.

 

I've never had cause to look but JTIS probably tells how to remove the J-Gate module and would have to at least hint where it is...

 

Yes. Same here as [JagV8] ... I have never had cause to go looking, but the wiring diags for all S-Types including yours, all show such a controller module ... shown as dotted lines (see diag legends page) inside the J-Gate Assembly on the page entitled Transmissions Figure 04.1 to which ...

• there are multiple fused power and a common ground connection;
• inputs include the LED illuminated Mode Switch;
• outputs include the Gearshift Interlock Solenoid.

Don't go looking for this mcu with a preconceived idea of a big box. I know that most would appear to be shaped and sized like a disk drive, but in this case where only major functions are (1) to provide an ignition key interlock, (2) the user switch for Sports Mode and (3) your Interlock Solenoid; I would be expecting something more like 30x20x6mm. This is a best guess based on switching power and limited i/o connections. Best advice is to look for congregation of wires and correct colours that match wiring diagram.
You are nearly there Smokey, so best wishes,
Ken

 

Thanks Jag and Cat,

I am away from the car and won't be back until after Labor Day. As soon as I get home I'll get right on trying to find the module. I see the wires up under the black shifter J-gate cover that bolts to the shift box itself.

There are a bunch of wires going into that and that is probably where the module is located. I'm looking forward to getting this problem whipped and posting the results.

Again, don't hesitate to post any info or suggestions as I don't have it fixed yet but I think we are closing in on the solutions. I may need to buy the module or the whole shifter section (not the mechanical portion) but at least there is hope.

Thanks again - this forum is great.

 

Back from my trip and problem solved.

I got a complete J-gate assembly, including the upper black portion with the electrical connections and J-gate module plus the lower mechanical portion. Upon installation this solved the problem.

I had previously tried to replace just the bottom mechanical portion that contains the solenoid and after some advice from JagV8, CAT and others came to the conclusion that the problem was most likely in the J-gate electrical module. This module is not your "traditional" big black box but looks more like a small electrical box and you wouldn't take it for a processing module normally.

I could have just ordered the module only but that was more than the whole unit on E-bay so I went with the whole unit. Now I guess its not "conclusive" that it was the electrical module but the anecdotal evidence clearly supports that conclusion.

So if your car won't come out of park and its not the pawl/parking brake issue its probably the module, not the solenoid itself. You can check the solenoid by putting 12V across the contacts and if it retracts, the solenoid itself is okay. If the solenoid doesn't energize and the brake on/of switch is working but the solenoid isn't, I'd look to that module as the likely culprit after checking out fuses, etc. You can buy the J-gate module by itself if need be but its pretty expensive from Jaguar.

Now if anyone needs the lower mechanical portion of the shifter I'll be putting one on ebay soon. I also have one that has the tab removed so you can shift out of park without the brake on but I consider that a temporary fix and a safety issue.

 

Great to hear it's fixed and it's great you got the part on EBay too.

Just a comment on the parking pawl. That is related to the early cars 1999-2002 with the 5 speed Ford transmission.

Have not seen parking pawl problems (Most common is getting stuck in park after parking on an incline) with the 6 speed ZF transmission.
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Hey [Smokey]; I've returned after a few days away to your great news. Thanks for posting us the outcome; and your kind words. I was glad to be able to help.

These little black boxes (I have some at work the size of an SD card which switch mains voltages) rarely fail ... but when they do, results can be unpredicatable and difficult to pinpoint. Adopting a well researched approach; all references to hand; and above all, adopting a patient and methodical approach, will solve most problems. Please don't think I am being patronizing when I say you showed this in abundance ... it was the very reason I felt confident you would succeed.

You may not realize it yet, but together with [JagV8], we have built a powerful case study in identifying, diagnosing, troubleshooting and successfully fixing one of the more esoteric malfunctions that can beset any modern complex vehicle. Man, you have trod where countless others would tremble!
Now, with my spanner fingers not able to bend around corners like they did, how can I get my "new" project car over to you for some return help?
Best wishes ... and please, keep in touch,

Ken

 

Smokey, I also have the same problem with my shifter and tried to remove the assembly but ran into a problem. I can not figure out how to remove the small cable ( ignition lockout ) and did not want to break the plastic connector. Does it pull off. Are you going to inspect the old part to see if it shows any sign of the problem?
Thanks, capt