Misfire Issues
#21
10-08-2009, 07:41 AM
Veteran Member
#22
10-08-2009, 07:43 AM
Yes, I obtained my cylinder numbering format from my JTIS CD. I hope that would be more reliable than wikipedia....
Next time I go into the dealership, I'm going to get with the tech at the open hood of our car and say, "okay, show me which coils you swapped, and then show me which spark plugs you swapped." That indeed is going to be the only way to nail down exactly what they did or did not do. But without removing the intake manifold, there's no way they could have done anything with the bank of cylinders on the drivers side of the engine....
Mike, I've seen tougher coils and plugs to get to than those on the passenger side of this S-Type. In fact, we own one of the most difficult-to-access coils and spark plugs vehicle I've ever encountered - my wife's 2004 Lexus RX330. The front bank of three coils and plugs are cake and can be changed in 10 minutes. But that rear bank of three coils and plugs is a nightmare, especially with my huge hands. I always go find my small-handed neighborhood buddy with an assortment of extensions, universals, and other magic tools whenever I have to do something to that rear bank. He was a tool-and-die expert at a GM plant in New Jersey for 20+ years and without his help, there's no way I can change those three rear plugs in that Lexus....
jagV8, they already don't love me at the service department. They absolutely hate the research I do because I've proven them wrong a couple of times back during my wife's "limp home mode" incident in mid-May. Whenever I walk in the service department, everybody runs away. In fact, they switched me to their most adversarial and argumentative service advisor for the initial round of attempting to get to the bottom of these misfire issues back in early September. I continue to battle with him and he knows I will not let up in my quest to tie all of these issues back to the August 3rd traffic accident....
Next time I go into the dealership, I'm going to get with the tech at the open hood of our car and say, "okay, show me which coils you swapped, and then show me which spark plugs you swapped." That indeed is going to be the only way to nail down exactly what they did or did not do. But without removing the intake manifold, there's no way they could have done anything with the bank of cylinders on the drivers side of the engine....
Mike, I've seen tougher coils and plugs to get to than those on the passenger side of this S-Type. In fact, we own one of the most difficult-to-access coils and spark plugs vehicle I've ever encountered - my wife's 2004 Lexus RX330. The front bank of three coils and plugs are cake and can be changed in 10 minutes. But that rear bank of three coils and plugs is a nightmare, especially with my huge hands. I always go find my small-handed neighborhood buddy with an assortment of extensions, universals, and other magic tools whenever I have to do something to that rear bank. He was a tool-and-die expert at a GM plant in New Jersey for 20+ years and without his help, there's no way I can change those three rear plugs in that Lexus....
jagV8, they already don't love me at the service department. They absolutely hate the research I do because I've proven them wrong a couple of times back during my wife's "limp home mode" incident in mid-May. Whenever I walk in the service department, everybody runs away. In fact, they switched me to their most adversarial and argumentative service advisor for the initial round of attempting to get to the bottom of these misfire issues back in early September. I continue to battle with him and he knows I will not let up in my quest to tie all of these issues back to the August 3rd traffic accident....
Last edited by Jon89; 10-08-2009 at 07:48 AM.
#23
10-08-2009, 08:02 AM
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Location: Damon /Houston, Texas
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3.0 liter dohc v-6 (ajv6)
got this from another source. Looks to be some confusion between jtis and other sources. I would recommend getting with the tech and have him identify the cylinder numbering as he understands it so everybody is operating off the same sheet of music.
Mike
got this from another source. Looks to be some confusion between jtis and other sources. I would recommend getting with the tech and have him identify the cylinder numbering as he understands it so everybody is operating off the same sheet of music.
Mike
#24
10-08-2009, 09:02 AM
I have a 2005 U.S. left-hand drive S-Type 3.0.
You can get to the passenger-side cylinders (1, 3, and 5 per my JTIS CD) without removing what I call the intake manifold. It would be tough, but my visual inspection tells me that it's doable. Perhaps the correct name for the big metal cover is actually the plenum, I'm not sure. I should check JTIS and see what it calls these various parts. Terminology is often different from one manufacturer to another.
But what I DO know is that you cannot get to the driver-side cylinders (2, 4, and 6 per my JTIS CD) without removing that big metal cover that I call the intake manifold. Again, maybe it is actually called the plenum....
Brutal,
The insurance companies just approved paying for replacing our cracked air filter housing. Once that is done today, what do you think the chances are that our misfire problems in cylinder 3 will suddenly disappear?
You can get to the passenger-side cylinders (1, 3, and 5 per my JTIS CD) without removing what I call the intake manifold. It would be tough, but my visual inspection tells me that it's doable. Perhaps the correct name for the big metal cover is actually the plenum, I'm not sure. I should check JTIS and see what it calls these various parts. Terminology is often different from one manufacturer to another.
But what I DO know is that you cannot get to the driver-side cylinders (2, 4, and 6 per my JTIS CD) without removing that big metal cover that I call the intake manifold. Again, maybe it is actually called the plenum....
Brutal,
The insurance companies just approved paying for replacing our cracked air filter housing. Once that is done today, what do you think the chances are that our misfire problems in cylinder 3 will suddenly disappear?
Last edited by Jon89; 10-08-2009 at 09:08 AM.
#25
10-08-2009, 10:40 AM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Damon /Houston, Texas
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i have a 2005 u.s. Left-hand drive s-type 3.0.
You can get to the passenger-side cylinders (1, 3, and 5 per my jtis cd) without removing what i call the intake manifold. It would be tough, but my visual inspection tells me that it's doable. Perhaps the correct name for the big metal cover is actually the plenum, i'm not sure. I should check jtis and see what it calls these various parts. Terminology is often different from one manufacturer to another.
But what i do know is that you cannot get to the driver-side cylinders (2, 4, and 6 per my jtis cd) without removing that big metal cover that i call the intake manifold. Again, maybe it is actually called the plenum....
Brutal,
the insurance companies just approved paying for replacing our cracked air filter housing. Once that is done today, what do you think the chances are that our misfire problems in cylinder 3 will suddenly disappear?
You can get to the passenger-side cylinders (1, 3, and 5 per my jtis cd) without removing what i call the intake manifold. It would be tough, but my visual inspection tells me that it's doable. Perhaps the correct name for the big metal cover is actually the plenum, i'm not sure. I should check jtis and see what it calls these various parts. Terminology is often different from one manufacturer to another.
But what i do know is that you cannot get to the driver-side cylinders (2, 4, and 6 per my jtis cd) without removing that big metal cover that i call the intake manifold. Again, maybe it is actually called the plenum....
Brutal,
the insurance companies just approved paying for replacing our cracked air filter housing. Once that is done today, what do you think the chances are that our misfire problems in cylinder 3 will suddenly disappear?
#26
10-08-2009, 11:11 AM
While I appreciate your advice, I think that installing all new coils and plugs at this point would be a big waste of money. Cylinder 3 is the only one throwing codes, and it does so very intermittently. The car has only 34,000 miles on it.
This is the first car I've owned since OBDII scanners were introduced (mid 1990s I think) where the dealership service department couldn't read the codes, run their diagnostics, do a bit of research, and then correctly nail down and fix the problem on the first attempt, usually needing just one day and never more than two days. Very frustrating as well as expensive regardless of whether the insurance company is paying or I am paying....
This is the first car I've owned since OBDII scanners were introduced (mid 1990s I think) where the dealership service department couldn't read the codes, run their diagnostics, do a bit of research, and then correctly nail down and fix the problem on the first attempt, usually needing just one day and never more than two days. Very frustrating as well as expensive regardless of whether the insurance company is paying or I am paying....
#27
10-08-2009, 11:43 AM
I spent some more time reading my JTIS CD in its DTC (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) section and then its 2.5/3.0-litre Engine section. JTIS appears to contradict itself from one section to the other. Here's how:
The cylinder drawings in the DTC section appear like this:
Front of S-Type
2 1
4 3
6 5
Rear of S-Type
But in the 2.5/3.0-litre Engine section, here's exactly how the cylinder positions are described:
"Viewed from the driving position, the right-hand cylinder bank is numbered from 1 to 3 from the front of the vehicle and the left-hand cylinder bank is numbered from 4 to 6 from the front of the vehicle."
Reading that statement, here is how it claims the cylinder positions are lined up:
Front of S-Type
4 1
5 2
6 3
Rear of S-Type
No wonder there is so much confusion about the cylinders when even the JTIS CD shows a diagram of one configuration in the DTC section and then describes a completely different configuration in the Engine section. I don't know how anyone could effectively use a common point of reference when discussing the cylinder position line-up with this glaring difference in the diagram vs. the description....
Will the real cylinder 3 please stand up ??
The cylinder drawings in the DTC section appear like this:
Front of S-Type
2 1
4 3
6 5
Rear of S-Type
But in the 2.5/3.0-litre Engine section, here's exactly how the cylinder positions are described:
"Viewed from the driving position, the right-hand cylinder bank is numbered from 1 to 3 from the front of the vehicle and the left-hand cylinder bank is numbered from 4 to 6 from the front of the vehicle."
Reading that statement, here is how it claims the cylinder positions are lined up:
Front of S-Type
4 1
5 2
6 3
Rear of S-Type
No wonder there is so much confusion about the cylinders when even the JTIS CD shows a diagram of one configuration in the DTC section and then describes a completely different configuration in the Engine section. I don't know how anyone could effectively use a common point of reference when discussing the cylinder position line-up with this glaring difference in the diagram vs. the description....
Will the real cylinder 3 please stand up ??
#28
10-08-2009, 01:03 PM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Damon /Houston, Texas
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that why i dont use jtis, I use GTR(global technical referance) online through Jaguar. even that can be wrong, but as I already stated before. ON your car and year number 3 IS under the intake plenum, middle cylinder, passenger side of the car!!!!!!!!
rear of car
5 6
3 4
1 2
front of car
now can we move on!!!!
rear of car
5 6
3 4
1 2
front of car
now can we move on!!!!
#30
10-08-2009, 02:24 PM
Thanks for confirming that, Brutal. The JTIS diagram is correct but the JTIS Engine description is not. I suspected that would turn out to be the case....
When I next meet with the tech (hopefully tomorrow), I now know what to ask and where to look....
JOsworth,
Confirming this information may not be important to you, but it damn sure is to me. I'm the one who is trying hard to get this %#&@ing problem resolved once and for all without costing me an arm and a leg. If it happens to your car, I think your attitude will change a little bit....
When I next meet with the tech (hopefully tomorrow), I now know what to ask and where to look....
JOsworth,
Confirming this information may not be important to you, but it damn sure is to me. I'm the one who is trying hard to get this %#&@ing problem resolved once and for all without costing me an arm and a leg. If it happens to your car, I think your attitude will change a little bit....
#31
10-08-2009, 02:54 PM
Veteran Member
Jon89 - further down the same part (or a nearby part) of the non-DTC stuff it gives the same layout as in the DTC file (i.e. as Brutal says). Some tech authors have been editing their docs (badly) 
We need a group membership of GTR! (Bet it's not allowed.)
I wonder whether the earlier cars actually use the same numbering but the docs were only changed (mostly) for the later cars. Easy way to find out: cause a misfire on a known cylinder whose number varies between the years and see which cylinder the OBD reports. Do this briefly or damage your cat!!
We need a group membership of GTR! (Bet it's not allowed.)
I wonder whether the earlier cars actually use the same numbering but the docs were only changed (mostly) for the later cars. Easy way to find out: cause a misfire on a known cylinder whose number varies between the years and see which cylinder the OBD reports. Do this briefly or damage your cat!!
#32
10-08-2009, 03:24 PM
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Damon /Houston, Texas
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You can get access to gtr but you do have to pay. Someone told me its single access, or yearly depending on how often you want to access it. And was also told its $2000/yr dont know about single access. My password access to my computer links changes every 2 months. The biggest issue i always see is independants, auto parts stores etc that pull codes and tell you "its for "a" bank on the drivers side" speaking left hand drive. You have to remember its a british car and a bank is drivers side for "right hand drive" cant count on all my fingers and toes how many times ive seen wrong coils, knock sensors etc put in the wrong side. And then just yesturday i diag a car with a bad right front wheel speed sensor 3 weeks ago. She said she would be back(yeah ill hold my breath) she had someone put a used part in, no problem, but she said it still had the same code and wanted her diag fee back. Pulled her out to the shop and showed how they put it in wrong so the sensor wouldnt read the ring. I dont know how they did that one, its notched to go in only 1 way...buy whatever
#33
10-08-2009, 04:17 PM
Veteran Member
Thanks Brutal. Yeah, it's not especially cheap AND you can't see what you would get before you pay - which sure makes it unattractive to a DIYer.
My understanding is that, internationally, right and left refer to the sides of the car as if you stand behind it looking forwards and that bank 1 (if there are 2) is always the one on the right (it is for OBD, e.g. see SAE J1979).
(The terms LHD and RHD follow from the above.)
Cylinder numbering appears to be in need of a standard OR jag changed in about 2002 because they found a standard and started to follow it LOL
(Or they changed PCM suppliers and had to do what the software does. Yuck)
My understanding is that, internationally, right and left refer to the sides of the car as if you stand behind it looking forwards and that bank 1 (if there are 2) is always the one on the right (it is for OBD, e.g. see SAE J1979).
(The terms LHD and RHD follow from the above.)
Cylinder numbering appears to be in need of a standard OR jag changed in about 2002 because they found a standard and started to follow it LOL
(Or they changed PCM suppliers and had to do what the software does. Yuck)
#34
10-08-2009, 06:23 PM
#35
10-08-2009, 09:42 PM
Veteran Member
Jon, I am attaching a pic(s) here what Brutal is talkng about on page 2 #13 response. This picture is the rear of the intake manifold which houses those dreaded IMT O-Rings. Note the amount of "blow by" oil collected in the lower tuning valve hole. That hole is what feeds YOURS and MY passenger side bank. Where our #3 cylinder is located. That oil has only one place to go when it builds up enough and gets sucked into the passenger side cylinders. The passenger side coils and plugs are NOT accessible without removing the silver intake manifold and not the black plastic drivers side cover. The front view of intake, note the silver tubes on the lower portion those are the IMT (tuning valve) feeder lines. I hope this helps.
Also in the middle pic (silver intake) you will notice a black vacuum line coming out of the valve cover (not the black wire in the front). The black coil for #1 cylinder is clearly visable, #3 cylinder coil barely visable and #5 coil unseen. IMPOSSABLE not even with ET's fingers to change coils or plugs without removing the silver intake manifold (I've been there), which also means new UPPER intake gaskets need to be replaced $77.00 a set (dealer only).
Don't be upset with Jeff.
Rick
Also in the middle pic (silver intake) you will notice a black vacuum line coming out of the valve cover (not the black wire in the front). The black coil for #1 cylinder is clearly visable, #3 cylinder coil barely visable and #5 coil unseen. IMPOSSABLE not even with ET's fingers to change coils or plugs without removing the silver intake manifold (I've been there), which also means new UPPER intake gaskets need to be replaced $77.00 a set (dealer only).
Don't be upset with Jeff.
Rick
Last edited by joycesjag; 10-09-2009 at 07:01 AM.
#36
10-08-2009, 09:43 PM
Veteran Member
#38
10-09-2009, 08:16 AM
Rick,
Thanks much for the photos and descriptions. Every piece of information helps me as I do battle with the Jaguar service department. I know the Jag tech did not remove the intake manifold when he supposedly swapped coil 3 with coil 2 and spark plug 3 with spark plug 1 back in early September. He confirmed that on Tuesday when I dropped off the car again. So either the dealer is using a different cylinder numbering scheme than we are, or I am being lied to. I hope to find out today....
Jeff,
Apology accepted. I am so damn tired of taking a beating over this car and I need some relief. I spent the summer getting it in absolutely perfect condition using the factory warranty extensively and then two weeks after the warranty runs out, I get plowed. Nearly a month later, just two days after I pick it up from accident repairs, the misfire codes get thrown. Jaguar says it is not accident-related. I say it is. But they have no other explanation for me, so they just swap parts. Last Friday the same misfire codes get thrown again. The dealer completely missed the fact that the air filter housing is cracked until they discover it two days ago. They admit that had to happen in the accident. So if a cracked air filter housing is causing my misfires, then they are indeed accident-related and all costs should be supplemented to the Geico claim, not come out of my pocket like the dealer expects. With all this going on, my wife refuses to drive the car for long distances, which is exactly what we bought it for her to do. She doesn't trust it. I can't blame her for that. Whether I trust it or not, I can't drive it much because I'm 6-foot-7 and way too tall for the car (not nearly enough legroom and headroom is tight) and I prefer my big Dodge Ram pickup anyway. So if I have to sell it, I'm going to get financially hosed because regardless of how well it was repaired, it was in an accident. And that is assuming I can find a buyer because given the economy right now, I believe that will be very tough....
Maybe now you guys have a better understanding of where I'm coming from....
Thanks much for the photos and descriptions. Every piece of information helps me as I do battle with the Jaguar service department. I know the Jag tech did not remove the intake manifold when he supposedly swapped coil 3 with coil 2 and spark plug 3 with spark plug 1 back in early September. He confirmed that on Tuesday when I dropped off the car again. So either the dealer is using a different cylinder numbering scheme than we are, or I am being lied to. I hope to find out today....
Jeff,
Apology accepted. I am so damn tired of taking a beating over this car and I need some relief. I spent the summer getting it in absolutely perfect condition using the factory warranty extensively and then two weeks after the warranty runs out, I get plowed. Nearly a month later, just two days after I pick it up from accident repairs, the misfire codes get thrown. Jaguar says it is not accident-related. I say it is. But they have no other explanation for me, so they just swap parts. Last Friday the same misfire codes get thrown again. The dealer completely missed the fact that the air filter housing is cracked until they discover it two days ago. They admit that had to happen in the accident. So if a cracked air filter housing is causing my misfires, then they are indeed accident-related and all costs should be supplemented to the Geico claim, not come out of my pocket like the dealer expects. With all this going on, my wife refuses to drive the car for long distances, which is exactly what we bought it for her to do. She doesn't trust it. I can't blame her for that. Whether I trust it or not, I can't drive it much because I'm 6-foot-7 and way too tall for the car (not nearly enough legroom and headroom is tight) and I prefer my big Dodge Ram pickup anyway. So if I have to sell it, I'm going to get financially hosed because regardless of how well it was repaired, it was in an accident. And that is assuming I can find a buyer because given the economy right now, I believe that will be very tough....
Maybe now you guys have a better understanding of where I'm coming from....
#39
10-09-2009, 08:51 AM
Hi Jon,
I still think you have a case that the basic cause of the misfire is accident related. If the actual coil was not damaged, then the wire from the coil could have been. This would explain the intermittent nature of the occurences. How come the Jaguar dealer is reluctant to attribute it to the accident if GEICO is picking up the tab? At any rate, coils are relatively inexpensive (about $60 or so) not sure about the wire though. Like Brutal said, replace the inexpensive parts first and rule them out.
Good luck,
Mike
I still think you have a case that the basic cause of the misfire is accident related. If the actual coil was not damaged, then the wire from the coil could have been. This would explain the intermittent nature of the occurences. How come the Jaguar dealer is reluctant to attribute it to the accident if GEICO is picking up the tab? At any rate, coils are relatively inexpensive (about $60 or so) not sure about the wire though. Like Brutal said, replace the inexpensive parts first and rule them out.
Good luck,
Mike
#40
10-09-2009, 09:47 AM
Mike,
I wish I could answer your question about why the dealer has refused thus far to attribute the misfire problems to the accident. Either way, they get paid for their work. And their relationship with me would improve dramatically. But they prefer to stay adversarial with me. That's okay - I give as good as I get....
It might have something to do with what the tech told me on Tuesday. He admitted to Jaguar seeing higher-than-normal incidents of misfires in cylinders 1, 3, and 5 (but using which numbering scheme?). They know they have a problem but they don't have a diagnosis or solution, can't tell me when they'll have one, but did tell me that Jaguar will not be covering my car or any other car out of warranty. The explanation was that Jaguar is financially strapped and is conserving resources except for cars still under warranty....
Just what I needed to hear. "We know we have a problem, we don't have an answer yet, but when we do, you'll have to pay full price for the fix even though it's our fault...."
Customer service extraordinaire. No wonder my wife says she'll never set foot in the Jaguar dealership again. When her RX330 has issues, SHE handles them with the Lexus dealership because she loves how she is taken seriously and treated as an equal. Always a new loaner Lexus and never a charge so far, even after the factory warranty expired more than 40,000 miles ago....
I wish I could answer your question about why the dealer has refused thus far to attribute the misfire problems to the accident. Either way, they get paid for their work. And their relationship with me would improve dramatically. But they prefer to stay adversarial with me. That's okay - I give as good as I get....
It might have something to do with what the tech told me on Tuesday. He admitted to Jaguar seeing higher-than-normal incidents of misfires in cylinders 1, 3, and 5 (but using which numbering scheme?). They know they have a problem but they don't have a diagnosis or solution, can't tell me when they'll have one, but did tell me that Jaguar will not be covering my car or any other car out of warranty. The explanation was that Jaguar is financially strapped and is conserving resources except for cars still under warranty....
Just what I needed to hear. "We know we have a problem, we don't have an answer yet, but when we do, you'll have to pay full price for the fix even though it's our fault...."
Customer service extraordinaire. No wonder my wife says she'll never set foot in the Jaguar dealership again. When her RX330 has issues, SHE handles them with the Lexus dealership because she loves how she is taken seriously and treated as an equal. Always a new loaner Lexus and never a charge so far, even after the factory warranty expired more than 40,000 miles ago....