I found an old post I had about mifire issues. I had no codes thrown but replaced the IMT O-rings and well I am not going to type it !!!!!

https://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=12249

 

Update:

Picked up the car late this afternoon. Codes have been cleared, coils check out normal, fuel injectors check out normal, all voltages and circuits check out normal. The tech states that other than the car starting a little rough for a few seconds first thing in the morning, everything tests normal. But he also predicts that the misfire codes will return.

I asked him if this was his car and he could only perform one service on it in an effort to fix it, what would it be? He thought for a moment and said, "replace the two intake manifold tuner O-rings". This is exactly what Rick (joycesjag) predicted this morning here on the forum. Rick and I had a long (and very enjoyable) phone conversation this afternoon, and the two of us may very well go for this procedure on our car at some point down the road. But right now, I'm just going to drive the car and see if those same misfire codes return. The tech says that our O-rings are not leaking oil like Rick's were, but I'm going to do some very meticulous eyeballing of that area in the morning and see if I can spot anything.

Thanks to all who have contributed their ideas to this thread. It is very much appreciated. You guys are some of the most helpful folks I've encountered out there in cyberspace, and I hope others can benefit from your expertise as well. If I uncover anything new that seems important to the issue at hand, you can bet that I'll post it here....

 

Hi Jon,

Glad to hear things have worked out for you. Next time it occurs, maybe you should go with the nuclear option: your wife. Anybody who has the inclination and apparently the ability to stick a candelbra into someone who is built like a lineman is not someone to be trifled with.

Happy Driving,

Mike

 

Point well taken, Mike! But I'm much more tight end than lineman....

But I wouldn't say that things have really worked out yet as far as the misfire issue is concerned. I think we've made significant progress, but nothing is carved in stone. Replacing the O-rings is the best guess right now - no trouble codes point to it, nothing is guaranteed, but it is probably the most logical approach to take. If ("when" may be the better choice of words) the codes P303 and P1316 get thrown again, I think I'll have to go for it at that point....

Good night all, drive home safely, I'm worn out and I'm going to bed....

 

I am kinda like center, myself.......I am the fireplug that all the dogs want to get to!

 

I pulled coils and spark plugs 2 and 4 (U.S. driver side, the two coils and plugs closest to the front of the car, covered only by the plastic dust shield) this afternoon just to get familiar with how much working room one has for tools and hands when doing a coil & plug removal.

I have to agree that I just don't see how coils and spark plugs 1, 3, and 5 (U.S. passenger side) could possibly be removed without taking the intake manifold off the top of the engine. The dealer tech told me yesterday that he can remove coils and spark plugs 1 and 3 (but not 5) WITHOUT first removing the intake manifold. You guys who've had your odd-numbered coils and spark plugs out, do you think that is indeed possible?

I was expecting NGK iridium spark plugs but I don't know what these are. I can't find a brand name, they have a purple dot at the top of the plug with 5 lighter-purple horizontal stripes around the white insulator, and the number on the insulator is AGSF22FSM-5C. The tips look like most iridium plugs I've used in the past, so I am assuming they are indeed iridium. On the metal body of the plug, it says "Made in U.S.A - 11".

Anybody recognize what brand they are?

If and when we replace the Intake Manifold Tuner O-rings, I think I'll do new spark plugs at the same time while we're in there. My research says to use NGK TR6AP13E iridium plugs. Anybody out there running these NGK iridium plugs now?

 

Thanks, you have this problem and i respond. Now today what do i get but an 05 with misfires on 1 3 5. Yes you can take out 1 and 3 without removing the intake. But what a pain in the *** it took 10 minutes just to take off the connector on 3. Theyre hard enough with everything out of the way much less trying to do it inder the intake by feel. And looking on this car you can see where they have been misfiring to ground around the cylinder head opening at the top. The top of the cam cover plastic is deteriorated from high voltage firing. So i suspect that the coils are simply firing to the cylinder head instead of the plug. I quoted 3 coils and 6 plugs since this car is almost 100k for miles

 

About this time I wish I would have had a V8. Actually, if you have to remove the intake manifold to swap out the coils and/or plugs I would just as soon clean or replace the injectors so you don't have to do it twice.

Mike

 

no you dont want to replace injectors but have them sonic cleaned, tested and new screens installed. Replacments is over a $1000. They are only avail as an assembly within the whole lower intake injector assembly. They can be taken apart, but its a pia

 

Thanks Brutal,

I wasn't aware the cost of the injectors was that much. I was thinking somewhere around $60 per unit. When the time comes I will look at the sonic cleaning option and thanks in advance for the link.

What isn't a PITA when working on a Jaguar?

Mike

 

Brutal, if you haven't seen my other post and threads, welcome back sir!!!!!! Its a pleasure to have your insight back!

I am still wondering on how to pull the #3 coil without removing the intake, just because I am an idiot, I spent about 19 minutes last night (at about 11:00 PM) and about 50 minutes today trying to remove that coil without F*'ing it up! Mine is not bad and I didn't want to make it bad.......Once out how in the world would one get the new one in without F*ing it up. I am going nuts over this.

If I may ask also would you, could you, have you replaced the IMT O-Rings without removing the intake. I see it as feasible but that could complicate other matters. Such as the massive wiring harness and the main vacuum line to the brake booster and the general clean up of the blow-by oil?

The attached picture is of a coil (not mine, swiped off ebay for illustration purpose only) for those who did not know what the entire coil looks like. It is over 5" long. Are there 2 pieces to this coil? Can it be separated?

Inquisitive mind cannot rest.
Thank you

 

Brutal,

You are indeed a magician if you can remove the coils and plugs from cylinders 1 and 3 without first removing the intake manifold. I would never be willing to attempt it.

Do you believe that leaking Intake Manifold Tuner O-rings are the most logical cause for these misfires in the 2005 models that some Jag techs around the country now are seeing? I'm not willing to spend hundreds of dollars just swapping parts to find out. Our car spent four days at the dealer last week. Our coils all test normal. Our injectors all test normal. Our wiring harnesses and circuits all test normal. The dealer remains stumped, but they recommend a complete fuel injector and fuel induction system cleaning (at about $400) and changing the IMT O-rings (at about $300). The tech says he can change the IMT O-rings WITHOUT removing the intake manifold. I don't see how.

No codes point to these procedures. I won't spend $700 when the best reason I'm getting is that performing these two procedures MIGHT eliminate my misfire issues.

I value your advice and I'm always willing to seriously consider what you have to say. I don't feel that way about the recommendations made by our dealer....

 

I'll leave Brutal to say - but about all they can have done with the injectors is to measure their resistance and maybe whether they squirt any fuel. To do proper testing you remove them and fit them to special equipment which measures flow rates under varying conditions over an extended period (and more). (You ultrasonically clean them first, I believe.) I can see why you'd not want to spend the money at this stage, particularly as your local jag guy doesn't appear to have the knowledge Brutal does.

You can probably change O rings, gaskets etc yourself, and far cheaper. You've a much newer car but it's essentially the same as what BugDoc posted. (I suspect you'd change cyl 3 coil & plug while in there.)

As I recall (a bit poorly!), you've done quite a bit of car work so you can probably take a gasket or O ring off and judge whether it actually needs replacing, erring on the side of renewing it if in doubt.

You may find something that's been missed by your local guy, too.

 

let me see if I can answer a couple questions today before I button up the front timing cover on my Nissan engine sitting on the stand in my garage( Im finally finishing up the buildup on it and should have 400hp at the crank this time out of a super charged V6) Imt orings can either be unbolted with the intake on(hardest) or pull the wiper cowl and cross brace. This allows lots of room to work and replace them. the later 4 pin coils cannot be seperated like the rubber booted earlier 2 pins, and are supposed to be a more robust coil. The evidence I saw on the V6 yesturday Sat. showed that the 1 3 5 coild where indeed misfiring. Physical evidence was the high voltage damage to the plug well opening. This is nothing more than the coil firing to the path of least resistance(the head) instead of the plug. Much like old school plug wires firing to each other or any close ground source once the insulation has deteriorated. On the injectors Im sure you can buy injectors seperatly but the lower intake and injectors and factory assembled and theyre installed angled and the rail and injectors plus intake pivot together at an angle. I have taken them apart and reistalled. Its hard but can be done with plenty of silicone paste or similar lube. Again after doing both onboard cleaning of injectors(what they want to do) and cleaning and seeing what is down at injector rx I no longer fell that on board cleaning is the way to go IF you can remove the injectors to send off. If not then yes theres nothing wrong with onboard cleaning, (gas tank additives are BS) Even Jagaur and Land Rover wants All dealerships to buy the equipment to sonic clean and flow test. But at $8000 plus the rebuild parts and the butchers that work at all shops. The return on investment is virtually non existant and the equipment would be eventuall trash. And with a couple like Injector Rx right down the street with the equipments I push management that we NEVER buy that equiment but pay an outside source to do thats not even a mile away. his website again is
www. injectorrx.com
Talk to Chris the owner and yes you can tell him I reffered you. Hes REALLY good on everything since he runs engine logics and knows the math and practical apps to building horsepower. Something he laughes at when people say they make XXXhp but yet the injectors they run would never support that power output if run at 100% duty cycle.
on the misfires. I believe(assumuptions) maybe caused by oil in lower intake that increases the resistance to those plugs firing say on cold startups. Which would lead to the coils firing to the heads, this breaks down the insulation of the coil and eventually does it more frequently. replacing the imt orings does more to stop oil leaking out the lower oring onto the exhaust. Be sure to only use the new style green imt orings since when they get to operating temp they seal tightly to the intake. when you have the imt out clean the lower intake of oil as much as possible with a rag, it tends to collect right by the imt so its not hard. Personally I would by a coil and just replace it yourself. use a 8mm either wrench or socket or swivel socket and extension to remove the bolt that holds down the coil. Like I said the hardest part for me was disconnecting the electrical connector. once done just lift up and pivot around under the intake it slips right out. ok Ive got to get back to work bye
oh and on injector resistance, I have never seen resitance tell you anything you couldnt determine otherwise, like a dead injector. If the windings are bad youll see it in the resistance, but you know from the way it runs ALL the time. Again the BEST is to send them out, have them cleaned and tested

 

jagv8, I see, and understand what you said thread/post #58 (no sense in requoting 3rd paragraph). The O-Rings that we are talking about throughout this post are CHEAP less than 5 bones each. The intake gaskets however are quite pricey when you have to pay $12.00 to $18.00 ea. multiplied by 6. The intake gaskets, once removed should not be reused from what I understand.

 

I've not seen the cost mentioned before (but may have missed it).

Are these gaskets rubber or paper? If rubber, the point is always that unless they're unfit for reuse (torn, brittle, no longer springy, etc) then you may reuse them (especially if you're short of money).

You can reuse paper gaskets if you're really careful and they're not damaged, but it's not the best of plans. It can be better to make your own (so long as they're low pressure seals).

But regardless, a misfire is risking the cats. They're a lot more expensive than gaskets

A misfire may well also mean the car fails emissions tests so is taken off the road. Not everyone has another vehicle so that's a really serious issue.

I'd be trying to find an affordable OBD tool with the right features to look at live data as well as actual codes, as another way to see how the car is. But gaskets will be cheaper so if money's really tight ...... er, probably don't drive a car at all, let alone a jag

 

Intake gaskets are rubber and kinda oval in shape.

 

i always reused the oring intake gaskets, unless damaged and they never are. Now the earlier intake gaskets that are contained in a plastic holder with the 3 gaskets in each tray. I always replace cause those suck and are usually distorted from oil in the intake. And daniel, egr does not go through the throttle body, but below. And to the best of my knowledge on all cars because of the way it functions. And many engines no longer use active egr, but passive through the use of cam and vvt operation, and reversion of exhaust gases in the exhaust system