My Patience Is Gone - F* This Car!! - Limp Again "FIXED"
#81
08-06-2011, 05:08 PM
OK, I'll be the first to post... Sorry, no video or pictures... No shenanigans either.... Other than Bert driving a supercharged S Type that made him say what I always said... "I should've gotten a V8!"
There was one code present. I don't remember what it was but it was related to the throttle. Both the pedal and TPS sensor look to have been replaced. So, it very well could have been an old code.
Jason pulled down the lower dash and went to town re-soldering all the hack work done when the remote start was installed. The hope, since it doesn't seem to be throwing a bunch of codes, just shuts off with limp mode, is that it was a short in there or even a resistance issue. Jason can better explain all he did.
I just fiddled with the air box, trimmed the two tabs that make it next to impossible to get the filter lid on. I had it out to pull out an old alarm siren. Other than that, I basically hung out with Bert and Jason.
When it was done we took Bert's car out with me following, and it didn't jump into limp mode. But, we are waiting to see if it does act up or not.
Bert will better answer...
The best part of it all was meeting some new friends, face to face!
There was one code present. I don't remember what it was but it was related to the throttle. Both the pedal and TPS sensor look to have been replaced. So, it very well could have been an old code.
Jason pulled down the lower dash and went to town re-soldering all the hack work done when the remote start was installed. The hope, since it doesn't seem to be throwing a bunch of codes, just shuts off with limp mode, is that it was a short in there or even a resistance issue. Jason can better explain all he did.
I just fiddled with the air box, trimmed the two tabs that make it next to impossible to get the filter lid on. I had it out to pull out an old alarm siren. Other than that, I basically hung out with Bert and Jason.
When it was done we took Bert's car out with me following, and it didn't jump into limp mode. But, we are waiting to see if it does act up or not.
Bert will better answer...
The best part of it all was meeting some new friends, face to face!
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#82
08-06-2011, 05:14 PM
I did find some suspect wire repairs that were done. However I'm not sure if that is the whole issue or not. Ill explain more later. Bert got a chance to run my STR real quick. I think he liked it.
I did run a scan and a P1344 was present. I brought jtis with me..........however on the drive over I was thinking about something. What would happen if a couple of ignition wires were to lose contact while driving? So I went right foe those lines and found 2 crimps that were not crimped correctly. They actually had not stripped the wire correctly and some plastic was actually under the crimp. This could cause intermittent lose of power and cause issues. I really wont know if it helped or not until Bert runs it some.
I did run a scan and a P1344 was present. I brought jtis with me..........however on the drive over I was thinking about something. What would happen if a couple of ignition wires were to lose contact while driving? So I went right foe those lines and found 2 crimps that were not crimped correctly. They actually had not stripped the wire correctly and some plastic was actually under the crimp. This could cause intermittent lose of power and cause issues. I really wont know if it helped or not until Bert runs it some.
#83
08-06-2011, 08:13 PM
Words cannot express the level of thanks I have for Jeff and Jason. I don't think I have ever learned more about a car in such a short period of time. Their dedication as Jag enthusiasts, forum members and just damn good people is extraordinary to intervene in this situation. All thanks to Jason and Jeff again. I also never want to leave out the excellent members of this forum that have been virtually by my side in the US and "across the pond".
The true test of this fix will be the upcoming days; so far the car has never gone past 3 days without the dreaded limp monster raising its ugly head. I will give a T+number of days update daily to let you know what happens.
As an additional note: I was able to track down the rat ******* - excuse me, original owner of the car and found out he traded the car in 3 months after having the remote starter put in because "the car started acting funny!" Hopefully, a mysterious brick does not crash through his window! If this turns out to be the problem, I will take back all of the nasty things I have said about Jaguar - but not the dealerships!
Ending on a happy note - I never drove an R before. Hot damn!!!!!!!! What a rush! Even if mine is fixed, I may get rid of it to buy an R! I now have Rnis envy!
Thanks again everyone.
The true test of this fix will be the upcoming days; so far the car has never gone past 3 days without the dreaded limp monster raising its ugly head. I will give a T+number of days update daily to let you know what happens.
As an additional note: I was able to track down the rat ******* - excuse me, original owner of the car and found out he traded the car in 3 months after having the remote starter put in because "the car started acting funny!" Hopefully, a mysterious brick does not crash through his window! If this turns out to be the problem, I will take back all of the nasty things I have said about Jaguar - but not the dealerships!
Ending on a happy note - I never drove an R before. Hot damn!!!!!!!! What a rush! Even if mine is fixed, I may get rid of it to buy an R! I now have Rnis envy!
Thanks again everyone.
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#85
08-06-2011, 08:54 PM
Veteran Member
You do what you can and work endlessly to find a solution to a problem that at times is looking you in the face. You think you’re at your wits end when the people around provide the support and help you so much need by offering to come and help. This team of people did what most people have forgotten how to do and that was to help. I personally wish to thank everyone involved for stepping up to help when help was needed. Thank You! Kudos!
My comments are not to be critical of anyone it is to praise those who stepped up to the plate.
My comments are not to be critical of anyone it is to praise those who stepped up to the plate.
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phd12volt (08-08-2011)
#86
08-06-2011, 10:22 PM
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#87
08-06-2011, 10:40 PM
so now that im not posting from my phone, so i was researching some things last night on JTIS and i kept trying to make sense of the issues. I remember him posting that it wont throw codes. Now this got me thinking, i have seen LIMP mode issues in other vehicles and it always threw codes of some sort. I know there are posts around here about not having codes and the such, but the LIMP mode always had a specific too it.........like jamming hard on the brakes, making a sharp right hand turn, etc etc. But in this case, we have no codes, or so i thought.
Now when i arrived i plugged up my scanner and got a P1344 code. Bert told me that the dealership had that too, but whatever was causing the limp mode to happen, was causing this code to be thrown. REMEMBER he had the TPS sensor done already with a new part. SO now upon opening JTIS, i switch over to the diagnosis and testing procedures. First thing that catches my eyes is the OPEN CIRCUIT POWER SUPPLY lines. Kinda makes sense since it has ignition lines for power to the TPS sensor.
So i am thinking, there has got to be something going on with the ignition switch wiring. I drop the dash and see hermetically sealed butt connectors on every ignition wire that had the remote start wiring on it. Usually with these connectors they are spot on and should not have any issues. (remember i have military aircraft wiring background also). These are almost identical to the connectors used on these aircraft, with one exception.........they dont have the wire inspection holes in them.
When working on military aircraft, the connectors we used had an inspection hole in them to verify copper wire inside the connector, and you should have about a 1/16th of an ich of copper showing outside the connector, however inside of the sealed area.
Upon inspecting the wiring, at the ignition switch, i found the white and the white/black(could have been a white/dark green) wires had indeed been crimped, however you could not see any copper exposed at the end of the terminal. This can pose an issue as the crim may not actually be down into the copper windings, and actually be sitting on the rubber/plastic wire coating. This is a big NO NO when you deal with wiring. COULD THIS BE THE ELUSIVE ISSUE??? YES IT COULD BE!!!
Thinking about this, lets say Bert is driving down the road and slight vibrations are causing either the white and/or the white/black(or white/dark green) to intermittently lose power while the other main ignition wiring is NOT losing power...........this will throw the ECM out of whack. Going back to basic vehicle wiring, it all makes sense in my head. PLUS this isnt the first time i have seen/dealt with this issue.
ANYWAY, i am not holding my breath for this repair..........i honestly think there is something i am missing. If it fixes the issue than great........but like i said, only time will tell.
If you would like me to go into the specifics of resistance and why it is so bad in these vehicles i will. But lets wait and see what happens with Bert. I really hope his issue is gone..........seriously i really do. But i have to think that someone else would have thought about this already in the first place. Especially if the dealership had his car for so long.
Now when i arrived i plugged up my scanner and got a P1344 code. Bert told me that the dealership had that too, but whatever was causing the limp mode to happen, was causing this code to be thrown. REMEMBER he had the TPS sensor done already with a new part. SO now upon opening JTIS, i switch over to the diagnosis and testing procedures. First thing that catches my eyes is the OPEN CIRCUIT POWER SUPPLY lines. Kinda makes sense since it has ignition lines for power to the TPS sensor.
So i am thinking, there has got to be something going on with the ignition switch wiring. I drop the dash and see hermetically sealed butt connectors on every ignition wire that had the remote start wiring on it. Usually with these connectors they are spot on and should not have any issues. (remember i have military aircraft wiring background also). These are almost identical to the connectors used on these aircraft, with one exception.........they dont have the wire inspection holes in them.
When working on military aircraft, the connectors we used had an inspection hole in them to verify copper wire inside the connector, and you should have about a 1/16th of an ich of copper showing outside the connector, however inside of the sealed area.
Upon inspecting the wiring, at the ignition switch, i found the white and the white/black(could have been a white/dark green) wires had indeed been crimped, however you could not see any copper exposed at the end of the terminal. This can pose an issue as the crim may not actually be down into the copper windings, and actually be sitting on the rubber/plastic wire coating. This is a big NO NO when you deal with wiring. COULD THIS BE THE ELUSIVE ISSUE??? YES IT COULD BE!!!
Thinking about this, lets say Bert is driving down the road and slight vibrations are causing either the white and/or the white/black(or white/dark green) to intermittently lose power while the other main ignition wiring is NOT losing power...........this will throw the ECM out of whack. Going back to basic vehicle wiring, it all makes sense in my head. PLUS this isnt the first time i have seen/dealt with this issue.
ANYWAY, i am not holding my breath for this repair..........i honestly think there is something i am missing. If it fixes the issue than great........but like i said, only time will tell.
If you would like me to go into the specifics of resistance and why it is so bad in these vehicles i will. But lets wait and see what happens with Bert. I really hope his issue is gone..........seriously i really do. But i have to think that someone else would have thought about this already in the first place. Especially if the dealership had his car for so long.
Last edited by phd12volt; 08-06-2011 at 11:15 PM.
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amcdonal86 (08-09-2011)
#88
08-06-2011, 11:18 PM
Battery RED (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
ALSO A BROWN/RED
Ignition 1 GREEN/BLACK (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
ALSO A WHITE/GREEN
Ignition 2
ALSO A BROWN
Accessory 1 PINK/YELLOW (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
ALSO A WHITE
Accessory 2 PINK/WHITE (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
Starter 1 GRAY/BLACK OR LIGHT BLUE (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
Anti-Theft Type SECURILOCK
Anti-Theft Descript AN RF SIGNAL ACTIVATED SYSTEM
Key Sense RED/WHITE (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNES
ALSO A WHITE/BLUE. THIS WIRE WILL DISARM THE FACTORY ALARM DURING REMOTE START.
Also of note, the optional colors listed above were the colors at his ignition switch. This is the kind of tech data that installers can access.
Notice the ignition and accessory line colors
ALSO A BROWN/RED
Ignition 1 GREEN/BLACK (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
ALSO A WHITE/GREEN
Ignition 2
ALSO A BROWN
Accessory 1 PINK/YELLOW (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
ALSO A WHITE
Accessory 2 PINK/WHITE (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
Starter 1 GRAY/BLACK OR LIGHT BLUE (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNESS
Anti-Theft Type SECURILOCK
Anti-Theft Descript AN RF SIGNAL ACTIVATED SYSTEM
Key Sense RED/WHITE (+) IGNITION SWITCH HARNES
ALSO A WHITE/BLUE. THIS WIRE WILL DISARM THE FACTORY ALARM DURING REMOTE START.
Also of note, the optional colors listed above were the colors at his ignition switch. This is the kind of tech data that installers can access.
Notice the ignition and accessory line colors
#90
08-07-2011, 03:43 AM
PHD12volt puts his finger on something we found a problem in the security business -- CRIMP CONNECTORS. They were troublesome enough to warrant a British Standard test involving hanging a partic. heavy weight (I think it was 5Kg) off the connector to see if the wire pulled out. That idea of having an inspection hole in the crimp -- 1st. class. As I was partially involved in troubleshooting, I would solder the crimp as well; the Weller magnetic iron could have a pencil bit just right for the job. Any installation could have thousands of these crimp connectors, so even a 0.1% failure rate could give trouble, sometimes not even found at the commissioning stage.
The other contingency about troubleshooting was -- "has it been got-at"? This one was especially relevant with VTRs (videotape recorders). For some reason, incompetent engineers seemed to think they could repair these machines without any training or expertise. So when a VTR came in for repair, the first thing I did was to examine the machine for signs of interference. You know, missing cover screws, noise bars on picture, etc. If a VTR had been interfered with, it took four or five times as long to fix it. One had to repair the 'self-inflicted' faults, then go onto the original one.
It's tedious stuff, but going over the interference to this car's wiring really HAS to be done with a fine tooth-comb as appears to be happening now. Every connector needs to be examined under a glass to check it. Pulling manually on the crimp will also reveal insufficient crimp pressure from the original tool (another problem with crimps, as well as being crimped on the plastic insulation instead of the copper wire). If the crimp has been made with insufficient pressure, the copper will gradually corrode (with copper sulphide, oxide etc.) leading to future resistance problems. Copper oxide also will partially rectify any signal, as in the copper-oxide rectifier, leading to allsorts of spurious effects. Hence my own method of soldering.
All the best on that tedious job.
Leedsman.
The other contingency about troubleshooting was -- "has it been got-at"? This one was especially relevant with VTRs (videotape recorders). For some reason, incompetent engineers seemed to think they could repair these machines without any training or expertise. So when a VTR came in for repair, the first thing I did was to examine the machine for signs of interference. You know, missing cover screws, noise bars on picture, etc. If a VTR had been interfered with, it took four or five times as long to fix it. One had to repair the 'self-inflicted' faults, then go onto the original one.
It's tedious stuff, but going over the interference to this car's wiring really HAS to be done with a fine tooth-comb as appears to be happening now. Every connector needs to be examined under a glass to check it. Pulling manually on the crimp will also reveal insufficient crimp pressure from the original tool (another problem with crimps, as well as being crimped on the plastic insulation instead of the copper wire). If the crimp has been made with insufficient pressure, the copper will gradually corrode (with copper sulphide, oxide etc.) leading to future resistance problems. Copper oxide also will partially rectify any signal, as in the copper-oxide rectifier, leading to allsorts of spurious effects. Hence my own method of soldering.
All the best on that tedious job.
Leedsman.
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Gus (08-07-2011)
#91
08-07-2011, 03:48 AM
Veteran Member
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phd12volt (08-08-2011)
#92
08-07-2011, 07:25 AM
Veteran Member
Jason described the exact issue plagueing my former 83 Mustang GT. She recieved a 425 hp Ford MotorSport 351 H.O., thus required a re-wire of the ignition. While cruising the engine would suddenly cut-off. I replaced the coil but to no avail. Eventually I dropped it off with a mechanic. He found an incompletely crushed butt connector for the coil power lead, and it was in front of my face laying on the fender wall! Mind you, the Jag is 100 times more complicated with miles more wiring and loads of sensors, modules, etc. Kudos to Jason and Jeff.
Last edited by bfsgross; 08-07-2011 at 01:21 PM.
#93
08-07-2011, 08:26 AM
Veteran Member
#95
08-07-2011, 08:38 AM
Veteran Member
#96
08-07-2011, 08:41 AM
Veteran Member
PHD12volt puts his finger on something we found a problem in the security business -- CRIMP CONNECTORS. They were troublesome enough to warrant a British Standard test involving hanging a partic. heavy weight (I think it was 5Kg) off the connector to see if the wire pulled out. That idea of having an inspection hole in the crimp -- 1st. class. As I was partially involved in troubleshooting, I would solder the crimp as well; the Weller magnetic iron could have a pencil bit just right for the job. Any installation could have thousands of these crimp connectors, so even a 0.1% failure rate could give trouble, sometimes not even found at the commissioning stage.
The other contingency about troubleshooting was -- "has it been got-at"? This one was especially relevant with VTRs (videotape recorders). For some reason, incompetent engineers seemed to think they could repair these machines without any training or expertise. So when a VTR came in for repair, the first thing I did was to examine the machine for signs of interference. You know, missing cover screws, noise bars on picture, etc. If a VTR had been interfered with, it took four or five times as long to fix it. One had to repair the 'self-inflicted' faults, then go onto the original one.
It's tedious stuff, but going over the interference to this car's wiring really HAS to be done with a fine tooth-comb as appears to be happening now. Every connector needs to be examined under a glass to check it. Pulling manually on the crimp will also reveal insufficient crimp pressure from the original tool (another problem with crimps, as well as being crimped on the plastic insulation instead of the copper wire). If the crimp has been made with insufficient pressure, the copper will gradually corrode (with copper sulphide, oxide etc.) leading to future resistance problems. Copper oxide also will partially rectify any signal, as in the copper-oxide rectifier, leading to allsorts of spurious effects. Hence my own method of soldering.
All the best on that tedious job.
Leedsman.
The other contingency about troubleshooting was -- "has it been got-at"? This one was especially relevant with VTRs (videotape recorders). For some reason, incompetent engineers seemed to think they could repair these machines without any training or expertise. So when a VTR came in for repair, the first thing I did was to examine the machine for signs of interference. You know, missing cover screws, noise bars on picture, etc. If a VTR had been interfered with, it took four or five times as long to fix it. One had to repair the 'self-inflicted' faults, then go onto the original one.
It's tedious stuff, but going over the interference to this car's wiring really HAS to be done with a fine tooth-comb as appears to be happening now. Every connector needs to be examined under a glass to check it. Pulling manually on the crimp will also reveal insufficient crimp pressure from the original tool (another problem with crimps, as well as being crimped on the plastic insulation instead of the copper wire). If the crimp has been made with insufficient pressure, the copper will gradually corrode (with copper sulphide, oxide etc.) leading to future resistance problems. Copper oxide also will partially rectify any signal, as in the copper-oxide rectifier, leading to allsorts of spurious effects. Hence my own method of soldering.
All the best on that tedious job.
Leedsman.
#97
08-07-2011, 09:32 AM
I've been following this saga for some time now. First off, you guys are the best to help so much. I'm really glad to know you are both close by but hope I never need you.
I have been suspect of that remote start ever since it was mentioned. But I'm no electrical guy. My only experiance with one was my Dakota when I first got it. I bought one at the parts store and tried a DIY install. Didn't work half the time and kept setting the check engine light. Plus you had to give up one key for it's transmitter. In short order I ripped it out and it still sits in the box on a shelf. Told the guy at the store I didn't pay 28grand for a new truck to have the engine light on. I'm sure someone qualified like Jason can do a perfect job. But some of the people I see doing them scare me. Heck, just looking at the wire looms in the Jag scares the crap out of me.
Hope you guys got it.
I have been suspect of that remote start ever since it was mentioned. But I'm no electrical guy. My only experiance with one was my Dakota when I first got it. I bought one at the parts store and tried a DIY install. Didn't work half the time and kept setting the check engine light. Plus you had to give up one key for it's transmitter. In short order I ripped it out and it still sits in the box on a shelf. Told the guy at the store I didn't pay 28grand for a new truck to have the engine light on. I'm sure someone qualified like Jason can do a perfect job. But some of the people I see doing them scare me. Heck, just looking at the wire looms in the Jag scares the crap out of me.
Hope you guys got it.
#98
08-07-2011, 10:08 AM
In defense of remote starters,i have done multiple thousands of them over the last 18 or so years, and i have had them on all my vehicles, and my whole immediate family has them.
I for one know for a fact, when done CORRECTLY, they do not cause the vehicle to malfunction.
key word is correctly
also the DIY remote starters are blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, always have been always will be.
there are 5 main brands to look at with remote starters:
1-DEI Directed Electronics - Security & Remote Start | Home Theater | Satellite Radio | Car Audio & Video
2-Autopage AutoPage - The Leader In Real Automotive Solutions - Security, Remote Starts, 2-Way Communication, Replacement Transmitter
3- Encore www.encoreautomotivesystems.com
4-Compustar Remote Starters | GPS Systems | Car Alarms | Compustar.com
5- Audiovox/Prestige/Code Alarm The Audiovox Corporation
Other side of that coin, is the INSTALLER.
I for one know for a fact, when done CORRECTLY, they do not cause the vehicle to malfunction.
key word is correctly
also the DIY remote starters are blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, always have been always will be.
there are 5 main brands to look at with remote starters:
1-DEI Directed Electronics - Security & Remote Start | Home Theater | Satellite Radio | Car Audio & Video
2-Autopage AutoPage - The Leader In Real Automotive Solutions - Security, Remote Starts, 2-Way Communication, Replacement Transmitter
3- Encore www.encoreautomotivesystems.com
4-Compustar Remote Starters | GPS Systems | Car Alarms | Compustar.com
5- Audiovox/Prestige/Code Alarm The Audiovox Corporation
Other side of that coin, is the INSTALLER.
#100
08-07-2011, 04:48 PM